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Julian, sit back, stop being defensive and answer the point I made. Yes there are teachers and apostles and all the other gifts that are given for the operation of the church, but one is not to be esteemed above another and that is exactly what we do when we give men titles based on their job or position in the body of Christ and THAT is exactly what Jesus was talking about when He said we are all brothers and should not call anyone "father" or whatever title acknowledging superiority in any degree.
I agree with that. That was the concept of the whole passage. SO why are having this discussion? I thought you were one of those that repeats "Call no one Father" without doing any analysis.
If I meet Pope Francis I will gladly call him "Holy Father". I am certain my wife would kneel and kiss his ring because she enjoys being a Catholic. The Pope is a Holy man and does not see himself as superior. However, if he was sanctimonious and not the real deal then it would not be appropriate to call him "Holy Father".
I agree with that. That was the concept of the whole passage. SO why are having this discussion? I thought you were one of those that repeats "Call no one Father" without doing any analysis.
If I meet Pope Francis I will gladly call him "Holy Father". I am certain my wife would kneel and kiss his ring because she enjoys being a Catholic. The Pope is a Holy man and does not see himself as superior. However, if he was sanctimonious and not the real deal then it would not be appropriate to call him "Holy Father".
Why not just use the Scriptural term that exalts no one Brother.
ANY title used in address exalts someone and is counter to scripture.
The Pharisees wanted the same type of attention and how did Jesus speak about them? It wasn't favorable and that sets and example for us.
Matthew 16:18-19- “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
I do not believe the Pope is infallible.
First of all, the pope is the "man of sin" of 2 Thess 2:1-12. The term "man of sin" refers collectively to the papacy.
Secondly, let it be noted that Peter and Paul preached different gospels (Gal 2:7). Stated plainly and clearly - Peter's gospel was the gospel of the circumcision, and Paul's was the uncircumcision gospel. Paul's is for today, not Peter's, because it's God's final revelation: as Paul says in Romans 2:16, God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to his "my gospel."
Peter's gospel came first, but we can see that the full revelation of the gospel was not yet given in Acts chapter 2. In Acts 2, Peter conditions the gift of the Spirit on repentance and water baptism. However, beginning in Acts 10, God began giving the Spirit prior to water baptism - see Cornelius, to the surprise of Peter and those of the circumcision. So we see progressive revelation in the book of Acts. But in the first part of Acts, Peter had the keys to the kingdom because entry (i.e., the gift of the Spirit) required water baptism.
But Paul's gospel declares the gift of the Spirit by faith - Gal 3:2, 3:14; Eph 1:13-14. By one Spirit are all the elect baptized into one Body (1 Cor 12:13) - this is Holy Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God - and if children, then heirs (Rom 8:16-17). Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God and access by faith to the grace wherein we stand (Rom 5:1-2). It is the Holy Spirit Who gives us a testimony of our salvation and eternal security in Jesus Christ (see also 1 John 4:13). When Jesus spoke of remission of sins in Matthew 16, this is what He was talking about. This is the ministry of the Comforter (John 16:7), which was not occurring during Jesus's earthly ministry because He had to be glorified first (John 7:37-39).
Moderator cut: Bashing of a Christian denomination
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 06-03-2020 at 06:38 AM..
Reason: Denomination bashing in Christianity forum against the rules.
First of all, the pope is the "man of sin" of 2 Thess 2:1-12. The term "man of sin" refers collectively to the papacy.
Secondly, let it be noted that Peter and Paul preached different gospels (Gal 2:7). Stated plainly and clearly - Peter's gospel was the gospel of the circumcision, and Paul's was the uncircumcision gospel. Paul's is for today, not Peter's, because it's God's final revelation: as Paul says in Romans 2:16, God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to his "my gospel."
Peter's gospel came first, but we can see that the full revelation of the gospel was not yet given in Acts chapter 2. In Acts 2, Peter conditions the gift of the Spirit on repentance and water baptism. However, beginning in Acts 10, God began giving the Spirit prior to water baptism - see Cornelius, to the surprise of Peter and those of the circumcision. So we see progressive revelation in the book of Acts. But in the first part of Acts, Peter had the keys to the kingdom because entry (i.e., the gift of the Spirit) required water baptism.
But Paul's gospel declares the gift of the Spirit by faith - Gal 3:2, 3:14; Eph 1:13-14. By one Spirit are all the elect baptized into one Body (1 Cor 12:13) - this is Holy Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God - and if children, then heirs (Rom 8:16-17). Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God and access by faith to the grace wherein we stand (Rom 5:1-2). It is the Holy Spirit Who gives us a testimony of our salvation and eternal security in Jesus Christ (see also 1 John 4:13). When Jesus spoke of remission of sins in Matthew 16, this is what He was talking about. This is the ministry of the Comforter (John 16:7), which was not occurring during Jesus's earthly ministry because He had to be glorified first (John 7:37-39).
Moderator cut: Bashing of a Christian denomination
Without wishing to offend anyone, I would simply like to ask all Christians if they believe these words as spoken by some of the Popes of Emperor Constantine's Roman Church, which are as follows.
Pope Pius V said, “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.”
Pope Innocent III said “We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God.”
Pope Leo XIII declared, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.”
Pope Boniface VIII said “We declare, assert, define and pronounce to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every creature altogether necessary for salvation… I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all, and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of Christ, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?”
Pope Pius IX said, “I alone… am the successor of the apostles, the vicar of Jesus Christ. I am the way, the truth, and the life…”
Pope Pius X declared, The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who is speaking, hence, when anyone speaks of the Pope, it is not necessary to examine but to obey “The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself.”
Pope Pius XII said, “…recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth.”
One should not hide the words of these shepherds of God's people, in some dark place, but let them shine out for all the world to see.
Without wishing to offend anyone, I would simply like to ask all Christians if they believe these words as spoken by some of the Popes of Emperor Constantine's Roman Church, which are as follows.
Pope Pius V said, “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.”
Pope Innocent III said “We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God.”
Pope Leo XIII declared, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.”
Pope Boniface VIII said “We declare, assert, define and pronounce to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every creature altogether necessary for salvation… I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all, and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of Christ, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?”
Pope Pius IX said, “I alone… am the successor of the apostles, the vicar of Jesus Christ. I am the way, the truth, and the life…”
Pope Pius X declared, The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who is speaking, hence, when anyone speaks of the Pope, it is not necessary to examine but to obey “The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself.”
Pope Pius XII said, “…recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth.”
One should not hide the words of these shepherds of God's people, in some dark place, but let them shine out for all the world to see.
Kind of like the the Protestant view that ANYTHING the Bible has written in it comes straight from God and is equal to Jesus Christ, Himself, eh?
I kinda thought there was an excellent parallel between Catholicism and conservative Protestantism. Except the former is now evolving away from that crap and conservative Protestants are hardening their view which has been around less than 150 years.
Kind of like the the Protestant view that ANYTHING the Bible has written in it comes straight from God and is equal to Jesus Christ, Himself, eh?
I kinda thought there was an excellent parallel between Catholicism and conservative Protestantism. Except the former is now evolving away from that crap and conservative Protestants are hardening their view which has been around less than 150 years.
Without wishing to offend anyone, I would simply like to ask all Christians if they believe these words as spoken by some of the Popes of Emperor Constantine's Roman Church, which are as follows.
Pope Pius V said, “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.”
Pope Innocent III said “We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God.”
Pope Leo XIII declared, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.”
Pope Boniface VIII said “We declare, assert, define and pronounce to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every creature altogether necessary for salvation… I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all, and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of Christ, have but one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do. What therefore, can you make of me but God?”
Pope Pius IX said, “I alone… am the successor of the apostles, the vicar of Jesus Christ. I am the way, the truth, and the life…”
Pope Pius X declared, The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who is speaking, hence, when anyone speaks of the Pope, it is not necessary to examine but to obey “The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself.”
Pope Pius XII said, “…recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth.”
One should not hide the words of these shepherds of God's people, in some dark place, but let them shine out for all the world to see.
I agree that as Christians we should not hide the words of the popes.
I agree that as Christians we should not hide the words of the popes.
You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish
Good job the inspirer of the Bible did not hide these words from the equivalent of a Roman pope.
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