If Christians can still sin willfully and be justified, then why .... (hell, doctrine)
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Mike555 - so you believe that God intentionally created this nightmare of a world as we know it? Why was He grieved about it before the flood if He already knew about Adam's fall beforehand? Why did He repent of making man if it was His plan for them to fall?
No! God created the world, including Adam, in a state of perfection. But God gave man free will just as He gave the angels free will. And just as with their free will the angels had the ability to rebel against God, as one third of them did in fact do, God also gave man free will so that he would have the ability to choose for or against God. God doesn't want slaves who don't have the ability to decide if they want a relationship with God or not. God wants a relationship with those who want a relationship with Him. And so free will is the most basic issue in the creation of not only angels, but also of man.
But with free will comes consequences which arise from those volitional choices. So with the negative volition of those who rebel against God and who choose to follow their own desires, coupled with the fact that Satan is the ruler of this world until Christ returns, and that it is Satan's attempt to control this world that he rules, we have the mess the world is in.
When the Bible says that God grieves, or gets angry, or that God hates, or that He repents (changes His mind), these are anthopopathisms. The ascribing to God of human feelings or qualities that He doesn't really have, in order to explain and make understandable to the finite human mind, things of a divine and infinite nature which would otherwise be beyond human understanding. God graciously allows language of accomodation to explain His divine policies which stem from His holiness as they relate to sin and evil.
God didn't want for Adam to fall, He simply knew that Adam would choose to disobey, and He planned accordingly in order to bring about His ultimate purpose, which is to bring many son's into glory. (Hebrews 2:9-14).
God brought about the flood in order to wipe out the Nephilim which were the half angelic half human offspring of the angels that forceably raped human females with the intention of wiping out true humanity so that Christ could not come into the world as true humanity (Gen.6). This would have meant that God could not have kept His promise to bring a Savior into the world as He said He would.(Gen. 3:15). And Satan reasoned that if God could not keep His promise, then the integrity of God was not perfect and that He therefore would release Satan from his sentence to the lake of fire, which is to be carried out at the end of the Millennium.(Rev.20:10). Saying that God repented of making man is simply expressing God's policy in the execution of His justice as it related to the Nephilim.
In bringing the flood, God protected true humanity by bringing the only true humanity left in the world, Noah and his sons, and their wifes, safely through the flood.
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Genesis 6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Then why did the power of the Holy Ghost kill Ananias and Sapphira?
Actually, there is a sin unto death as is mentioned in 1 John 5:16. The sin unto death is simply maximum divine discipline for the believer in being taken out of the world under maximum punitive measures and who then goes into the presense of the Lord. (Hebrews 12:6)
Then why did the power of the Holy Ghost kill Ananias and Sapphira?
They were killed because of their dark hearts...they were under no compulsion to give any money at all and instead of admitting the truth about the money, they lied. This is a perfect example of a consequence being dealt out for sin.
God brought about the flood in order to wipe out the Nephilim which were the half angelic half human offspring of the angels that forceably raped human females with the intention of wiping out true humanity so that Christ could not come into the world as true humanity (Gen.6). This would have meant that God could not have kept His promise to bring a Savior into the world as He said He would.(Gen. 3:15). And Satan reasoned that if God could not keep His promise, then the integrity of God was not perfect and that He therefore would release Satan from his sentence to the lake of fire, which is to be carried out at the end of the Millennium.(Rev.20:10). Saying that God repented of making man is simply expressing God's policy in the execution of His justice as it related to the Nephilim.
This is purely speculation and none of it is biblical. God says none of this in His word. Do you honestly believe that satan does anything God has not given him to do?
If Christians can sin willfully and still be justified, then why did God drive Adam & Eve out of the Garden of Eden?
If you would identify yourself as a Mormon, some would understand where you're coming from.
In Mormonism, justification is more of God's strict confirmation like a merit system of the man's agency...good decisions = rewards, bad = punishment
Logically, forgiveness in Mormonism is conditional. (which is why you phrased the question the way you did). "To every forgiveness there is a condition...fasting, the prayers, the humility must be equal to or greater than the sin...there must be conviction of the sin, abandoment of the evil.."Spencer Kimble
In Mormonism, sin is more viewed as things that hurt themself rather than angering God.
And that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing...especially for childbearing
With that being understood, I can see the paradox in your conclusions, that there is a conflict, the two isn't compatible.
Simply Biblical justification is totally foreign concept to you probably were taught in Mormonism.
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Originally Posted by scgraham
Why couldn't they still remain in His fellowship and perfection?
Because your view of sin and its affects. Mormonism says the fall was a good thing (2 Nephi 2:22-25, Moses 5:10-11), in reality it only harms yourself...not angering God.
Because of Mormonism's conditional view of forgiveness, and the weak affect of sin to it being a good thing, you conclude that there should be no reason to leave the garden:
Because we are able to choose, we are responsible for our actions (see Helaman 14:30-31)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193)
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins(Journal of Discourses)
One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation Spencer Kimble – quoted from Book of Mormon Student Manual
If you would dispell these doctrines with what the Bible teaches, you would have your answer.
Didn't man get a bum rap, having to suffer for Adam's sin? Why couldn't we all have been given our own shot in paradise? If we ate the fruit, then let God bounce us out on our @sses afterwards.
Rom 8:20-21 for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set freefrom the servitude of the corruptionto the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
If you are a part of the creation. You were subjected to vanity by God, it was not voluntary on any ones part ... Not even Adam. Adam was a victim as well as Eve. A victim of their own innocence ... a victim of the serpent ... and a victim of their own love for one another. Eve was deceived, Adam fell for his love of Eve ... We are all cursed to the same vanity and we are all victims of the corruption in the world.
Just as we are all within creation subject to vanity by God unwillingly, we will all in creation be set free from servitude of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. The whole creation, not just some of it.
This is purely speculation and none of it is biblical. God says none of this in His word. Do you honestly believe that satan does anything God has not given him to do?
Satans (Lucifers) moral fall and his sentencing to the lake of fire occurred before human history. (Isaiah 14:13-15)
The actual carrying out of the sentence to the lake of fire occurs at the end of human history. The end of the Millennium. (Revelation 20:10)
Satan and his angels are operational in the world today. (2 Cor.4:4)
Angels are intently interested in the affairs of men with relation to the Gospel of our salvation. These are 'things into which angels long to look.' (1 Peter 1:12).
Man was created lower or inferior to the angels. (Hebrew 2:7)
Believers will be ultimately higher or superior to the angels. (1 Cor.6:3; Heb.1:5-6.) Jesus Christ in His humanity is higher than the angels. Since Church Age believers are in union with Christ we too are positionally higher than the angels, and at the time of our bodily resurrection, we will be physically or ultimately higher than the angels.
Man is involved in the angelic conflict, the spiritual warfare which is going on all around us in the spiritual realm. (Eph.6:11-17)
The angels that were involved in the angelic infiltration of the human race during the antediluvian civilization which resulted in the Nephilim, are now imprisoned in Tartarus.(2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hades and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5) and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;')
1 Peter 3:19-20 'in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20) who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the Ark in which a few, that is , eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Lucifers title 'Satan' means 'adversary.' He is representing himself before God.
Now put all of this together.
Satan is being allowed by God to defend himself in his case against God. He is doing everything he can do within the rules that God has established by which Satan may operate in trying to have his sentence to the lake of fire overturned. Satan is on a leash so to speak, but is allowed a certain amount of lattitude in his defense.
It did not please God to simply carry out Satans punishment without first demonstrating to all of creation that God's punishment of the angels that rebelled is justified.
To that end He created the human race lower than the angels and having only free will in common with the angels. The premise is that if man can turn to God though never having been in the presence of God in the very throne room of God, and not knowing God as the angels had known Him, then the angels that rebelled against God are without excuse and God is justified in His sentencing of Satan.
And therefore this makes man's free will the most basic issue in the angelic conflict.
Now I realize that all of this is going to go right over the heads of those who insist on being skeptical of anything that contradicts their views, but for those who approach the Bible with the intention of honestly learning, then this information might just be of help to you.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-20-2009 at 08:32 PM..
Now I realize that all of this is going to go right over the heads of those who insist on being skeptical of anything that contradicts their views, but for those who approach the Bible with the intention of honestly learning, then this information might just be of help to you.
Actuallly, for those who have learned this, we realize that satan is but a tool. He governs the darkness, which God does not, because God doesn't abide in the darkness. So his power on this earth is limited only to what has been given him. But, the fairy tales concerning him have been greatly exaggerated, to say the least. Especially when verses are pulled out trying to explain who and what satan is, when most times, these verses have nothing to do with satan.
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Satans (Lucifers) moral fall and his sentencing to the lake of fire occurred before human history. (Isaiah 14:13-15)
Actually, this is a the king of Babylon. He is but a man verse 16. These passages explain that this man, who prclaimed himself a god, will not only be killed, but even in the afterlife, he is seperated from his own people.
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The actual carrying out of the sentence to the lake of fire occurs at the end of human history. The end of the Millennium. (Revelation 20:10)
This is true, along with the unbelievers,,they all share the same fate.
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Satan and his angels are operational in the world today. (2 Cor.4:4)
Who are the gods of this world? Who controls knowledge? Who controls schools? Who controls the media? You think this is satan who has the power to blind the people from God? You give satan too much power. This is but men, who rule over other men.
Verse 5 explain that the reason people who rule over others blind them to the Truth, is that the Truth sets men free. They preach Jesus Christ,,,as LORD.
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Angels are intently interested in the affairs of men with relation to the Gospel of our salvation. These are 'things into which angels long to look.' (1 Peter 1:12).
Angel is this verse is used of the prophets of old, who foresaw the coming of Christ, sought it, but did not witness it for themselves. Verse 10-12. "Thing unto which the messengers(prophets) long to look".
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Man was created lower or inferior to the angels. (Hebrew 2:7)
This verse is pertaining to the prophesy concerning Jesus. Keep reading, especially verses 9 and 10. And this man, Jesus, was made even lower than the messengers(prophets), BECAUSE of the suffering of death crowned with Glory and Honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
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Believers will be ultimately higher or superior to the angels. (1 Cor.6:3; Heb.1:5-6.)
You keep quoting verses out of context. Read Hebrews 1:1 to find out who the angels(messengers) were. The are the prophets. Verse 5 is read in the same light. For which of the prophets did He ever say, "You are MY Son, today I have begotten YOU." Get it?
In 1 Cor 6:3, Paul is explaing that the saints will judge all the world, even including the messengers of old. The prophets.
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Jesus Christ in His humanity is higher than the angels. Since Church Age believers are in union with Christ we too are positionally higher than the angels, and at the time of our bodily resurrection, we will be physically or ultimately higher than the angels.
Not based upon hard biblical facts.
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Man is involved in the angelic conflict, the spiritual warfare which is going on all around us in the spiritual realm. (Eph.6:11-17)
Ahh, the most famous of all the battles. Let us look at this verse CLOSELY.
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood." In other words, it is not against mankind.
"But against rulers, against thier power, against the world forces of THIS darkness" Really? Why would we, as Christians, be against world forces? Because of:
"Against the SPIRITUAL wickedness in the heavenly places". These are people who claim the title of Christian, yet by their actions they are wicked as wicked can be.
So, as Christians, who stand for the Truth, put on the FULL Armor of God, to withstand this evil.
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The angels that were involved in the angelic infiltration of the human race during the antediluvian civilization which resulted in the Nephilim, are now imprisoned in Tartarus.
Fairy tales.
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(2 Peter 2:4-5 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hades and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5) and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;')
God did not SPARE the prophets of old, who sinned, but who delivered messages to the people. Remember, an angel is but a messenger or prophet.
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1 Peter 3:19-20 'in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20) who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the Ark in which a few, that is , eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
And? All this shows is that no one was able to be brought out of the prison, until Christ came. Christ is the redemption of the people.
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Lucifers title 'Satan' means 'adversary.' He is representing himself before God.
Lucifer is a man made name given to the king of Babylon. Satan does indeed mean adversary, to which ANY man can become, including Peter, when doing something outside of the will of God.
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Now put all of this together.
Already have.
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Satan is being allowed by God to defend himself in his case against God.
All men will have this luxury, if it can be called that. But they will be without excuse.
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He is doing everything he can do within the rules that God has established by which Satan may operate in trying to have his sentence to the lake of fire overturned.
Huh? Where is this written? Adversaries against God and His people have been taking place since the beginning, so it goes without saying it will be the same in the end.
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Satan is on a leash so to speak, but is allowed a certain amount of lattitude in his defense.
Satans are only allowed to do what God allows. They are not given complete domain, even in this worldy realm. They have no power against Christians, nor do they have power against the Spirit.
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It did not please God to simply carry out Satans punishment without first demonstrating to all of creation that God's punishment of the angels that rebelled is justified.
Huh? Where is this written?
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To that end He created the human race lower than the angels
and having only free will in common with the angels.
Where is this written?
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The premise is that if man can turn to God though never having been in the presence of God in the very throne room of God, and not knowing God as the angels had known Him, then the angels that rebelled against God are without excuse and God is justified in His sentencing of Satan.
Where is this written?
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And therefore this makes man's free will the most basic issue in the angelic conflict.
Where is this angelic conflict you keep referring to? Are you reading things other than the Bible? It makes for some grand fantasy, but if it is not scripturally sound, then it is conjection.
I am not a Mormon; I am a non-denominational, blood-washed, born again child of God.
The Christian community is deceived about sin -- and it's sending many straight to hell. God has given examples in the OT and the NT showing us that God and sin don't mix. God did not excuse the sins of Adam and Eve, nor the sins (lies) of Ananias and Sapphira in the Early Church.
God demands a people who are living free from sin. The Book of Romans really delves into this issue.
I am persuaded to believe that this "everybody sins" doctrine is caused by people reasoning through the flesh, not the Spirit. It's the power that is in Jesus' shed blood that delivers us from all sin, not just covering it up. The Word of God teaches us not to lean to our own understanding.
Jesus loves you, and He will set you free if you will completely yield to Him in faith.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:34)
It only takes one willful sin in your life at the time of your death to send you to hell. Turn and live!
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