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All I asked is are you not judging as well? which you are. You don't have to philosophize it away. My judgment is I think you were judging and in your criticism of how they handle people who are weak in the faith.
Show me how i can be judging when i say "When we" , how is that judging ? Do you understand the difference between "you and we" ?
Why did you change the bolded words back in my original post you quoted ?.
Only God can judge your friend. Only thing you can do is pray for their deliverance. If they are sincere in their hearts to repent from their transgressions they will be saved.
O'rly? If all I saw from Christians was the brutality of those who claim to BE Christian, then I ALSO would reject it.
Well, I'm sure that's how you feel about the matter. OTOH, we also have what Christ claimed, as cited in another post. We also have what God claims throughout Scripture regarding the nature of man--all of which points to the fact that people do not reject Christ primarily because they see his representatives do evil. They don't need that to predispose them against Christ because they already are predisposed against him. Now if you said that the evils of professing Christians make them more predisposed against Christ, then I'd agree.
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Notice what the verse is saying. Actually, read it closely. If man's deeds are evil and they love evil, then they will reject the Light. Who loves evil? Only those who have a lot to lose. Like those in power, or wealthy by dishonest means, or have a heart filled in sin and they love it.
You are reading much into that text. It doesn't give a conditional "if" statement--"If man's deeds are evil." It simply declares that they are evil. Also, you are making an exception where the text makes no such exception. The text simply says, "men," not "those who have a lot to lose." All men love evil, and so all men reject the light. Only by grace can that be turned around.
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What OTHER example is there for a person with no faith? They look to those who claim to be followers, and see how they live, how they act, and how they live in this world.
You're making it seem that the only revelation unbelievers have to go by is the lives of professing Christians. But there is much more than that (in fact, the lives of believers don't even constitute revelation). There is the revelation of the gospel message itself.
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The problem with this is,,,,you cannot hardly tell the difference anymore, even though they claim the title of Christian.
In many cases, that is true. But what about those Christians who do live godly lives? Why don't those who claim to reject Christ based on the evils of professing Christians also accept Christ based on the righteousness of other Christians? It's a double standard. It's like saying, "I hate _______________ restaurant because they serve fattening food." Someone comes along and says, "But what about the healthy choices on their menu?" to which the hater stubbornly says, "I don't care about that. They serve fattening food, so I hate them." This person is obviously not neutral about the matter but has made his mind up no matter what evidence there is to the contrary. The natural man's mind is already made up about God, and it is made up to be hostile toward him. He just then goes about looking for excuses to justify his rebellion.
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The real reason why beatitude people would reject the Christ is that they have no earthly idea what it means to actually be a Christian, from other Christians. There are millions who reject Christ, and CALL themselves Christian.
Again, this presupposes that the only way people learn about Christianity is by watching other Christians. But the scriptures say otherwise. God says that people come to faith in Christ via the gospel, via divine revelation. Conversion and faith are never attributed to to the effects of watching other Christians' lives.
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But you are lumping the whole of humanity within the context of the "order of things". That isn't how the text reads. It reads that the world rejects the Light,,,not every person in the world,,,but the world.
The text says, "men," so I take it generally. If the text meant a particular subset of humanity, I think it would have been made clear.
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What is the world??? For Jesus, while alive on earth,,this was Israel. But not everyone IN Israel rejected Him. Those in power did. Those who were wealth lovers did. But there were thousands who followed Him.
Understand?
Yes, I understand your interpretation, but I don't agree with it. It doesn't line up with the rest of Scripture, which abounds with proof that all people reject God and Christ because of a rebellious nature.
Show me how i can be judging when i say..........how is that judging ?
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"I believe those of us who think in our pride that we are a good witness are in reality the lukewarm church that He threatened to spew out of His mouth. Yet many of those who are hurting, living how they want to, yet deep down truely believe, but truely are lost at this moment are the cold church , yet rather than being beckoned back to the fold they have had the finger pointed at them by the lukewarm church but you know what, i believe God is turning that cold church into a hot church , and it will be hated by the lukewarm church because God has rejected it When we begin to talk like we have arrived and judge those who the Lord is still working on , there is one thing for sure we are a member of the lukewarm church."
That's judging but that is neither here nor there.
Only God can judge your friend. Only thing you can do is pray for their deliverance. If they are sincere in their hearts to repent from their transgressions they will be saved.
That's God's grace in action right there.
I am not judging my friend's salvation. I am questioning his salvation.
Yes, I understand your interpretation, but I don't agree with it. It doesn't line up with the rest of Scripture, which abounds with proof that all people reject God and Christ because of a rebellious nature.
I don't really feel like debating this entire topic with you, so I will address this last thing you said.
If ALL people reject God, then why are YOU a Christian? In fact why would ANYONE be a Christian, if they ALL reject God? Doesn't make much sense, does it?
I do not reject Him. In Fact, He is my King, my Priest, my Lamb, and my Brother. Am I not included as a man who is part of the ALL mankind?
I am not judging my friend's salvation. I am questioning his salvation.
And rightly you should because John told us: If we say we love God but walk in darkness (sin) we lie....but if we repent and confess our sin, he will make us clean again. (paraphrase)
One cannot continually walk in sin (darkness) and know God. One has to repent and turn away from that sin to be forgiven of it and have their relationship restored.
There are many on this forum that teach you can sin and still be saved (some have even went so far to say that you can outright reject Christ after believing and still be saved) but you and I both know Gods word paints an entirely different picture.
I am not judging my friend's salvation. I am questioning his salvation.
Can you show me from the scripture where we are called to question the salvation of others .
I find it more appropiate to work out our own salvation and to study to show ourselves approved , rather than going around looking for the evidence in the lives of others and attempting to remove specks of dusts while failing to take the planks out of our own lives, or scanning others to see who is and who isn't approved.
Can you show me from the scripture where we are called to question the salvation of others .
I find it more appropiate to work out our own salvation and to study to show ourselves approved , rather than going around looking for the evidence in the lives of others and attempting to remove specks of dusts while failing to take the planks out of our own lives, or scanning others to see who is and who isn't approved.
Lord have mercy on us.
I never said, we are called. I said, I can question because I see no scripture that I can't.
You took that verse out of context.....furthermore was I with my friend looking at porno???? He told me. That verse is talking about judging as a hypocrite. If I was looking at porn and yet condeming him for doing the same or worse then that verse would apply to me.
If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is his Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with his sin (in which I haven't)
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or.....................
I never said, we are called. I said, I can question because I see no scripture that I can't.
You are joking right ? can this truely be a fundamentalist saying this ?
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or.....................
Another verse taken completely out of context by those of us think we are without spot and blemish .
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