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Well you don't really have the knowledge to know what I have read, now do you Jason28? How do you know that I haven't read the old testament? Are you all-knowing like God? Such claims are just rhetoric.
I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm simply presenting the truth as I know it. God has given me a desire to share this, so I do as I am blessed to be able to do so. Other people are not. God will convert people as He sees fit.
You bring up God slaying firstborns and running people through with swords. God also flooded the earth killing all people except for 8. So what? You think I'm not aware of those verses because I didn't address them in this thread? You think they contradict the verses I have posted in this thread? God is kind in ALL his deeds. God also creates evil too.
Perhaps you need to really contemplate how God slaying all the firstborn could actually be a kind deed. See this is not possible for a human to do. But for an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God, it is indeed possible for Him to kill and use that for the increased benefit of all, including those that were killed.
Perhaps you view these discussions as "wasted time", if so, DON'T READ THEM. I view them as "missionary work". The truth needs to be heard, because the truth is good news, unlike the bad news of eternal torment that most churches teach.
I say these things in all kindness. Be well Jason28...
I see how you work. You ignore everything others say, and we ignore what you say. Great internet missionary work you're doing there. I'm sure you'll convert lots of people.
You also totally failed to realize my point. What is the point of arguing of the existance of hell? Christians don't believe they are going there, and universalists don't believe it exists (or its temporary). So if both parties are saved, why argue? Arguing won't change anyones mind nor, in your viewpoint, will it save them. If there is no hell they need no saving. So the entire argument is fruitless.
So again, I'll tell you that you are wasting energy when you could be doing something that actually benefits or gives glory to God. Not all Christians threaten people with hell to convert believers, as anyone with common sense knows that really doesn't work too well. Likewise, nor does saying hell doesn't exist. Both parties are making everything God look like a discussion of hell and bantering. I don't think thats going to help anyone.
I see how you work. You ignore everything others say, and we ignore what you say. Great internet missionary work you're doing there. I'm sure you'll convert lots of people.
If I was ignoring you, I wouldn't be responding to you.
Look, you were the one who came in here making unsubstantiated claims, and basically complaining this is all pointless to discuss.
Quote:
You also totally failed to realize my point. What is the point of arguing of the existance of hell? Christians don't believe they are going there, and universalists don't believe it exists (or its temporary). So if both parties are saved, why argue? Arguing won't change anyones mind nor, in your viewpoint, will it save them. If there is no hell they need no saving. So the entire argument is fruitless.
So again, I'll tell you that you are wasting energy when you could be doing something that actually benefits or gives glory to God. Not all Christians threaten people with hell to convert believers, as anyone with common sense knows that really doesn't work too well. Likewise, nor does saying hell doesn't exist. Both parties are making everything God look like a discussion of hell and bantering. I don't think thats going to help anyone.
You are basically complaining it is pointless to debate the existence of hell. I disagree, as do many other people. Sorry, that is part of the purpose of this thread. These scriptures I present touched me in a way I could not imagine. We are talking about determining what is true here, based on scriptures, based on the character of God. You would think that would be important would it not? Wouldn't you think knowing the truth about God might actually be important?
So far you have not provided any scripture to support or refute Universal Salvation or Eternal hell, so I don't really know where you stand other than you complain about people who like to discuss what is the truth.
Miss Shawn, this thread is not for arguing the meaning of aion/aionios. Please re-read my OP. That has been beaten to death in other threads before, we can start another thread on it if you wish.
I will just say this on it and then move on: you are defining "aionios" as "a temporary or limited time", and that is incorrect, just as defining it as "eternal" is incorrect.
What this thread is for (if you read the OP) is for discussing all the other verses that show UR. I have looked at all the arguments you have presented already in the past. And they have been found to be flawed. For example you mention 1 Tim 2:4. Yes it could be interpreted as "desire to save all". I also covered that in my OP. Did you read my OP?
Anyway scripture tells us God can and will achieve His desires. So your point on 1 Tim 2:4 is moot.
By the way you should get together with sciotamicks and compare notes. You say Christ died for everyone, sciotamicks says Christ didn't die for everyone. Sciotamicks also says God doesn't love everyone.
Your right I am not argueing just presenting the facts. The only thing flawed is the heresy that you are believing. I don't argue, I only present what is in the bible.
Olam is also a word applied to men and hills. Do you believe men are "from everlasting"?
I didn't write that. It was from a Hebrew language website. It didn't say "just" for a distant time. The definition they gave does not limit the noun to being less than eternal, nor does it guarantee that the noun is eternal.
Why didn't they tranlate it "forevermore" in this passage?
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old [olam, aionion] wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
I don't have time today I have other things to do today. If you study and research you will see that Olam does mean old as well as ancient. Anyway, I am walking out of the house and may be able to get back later.
Olam also means to conceal, to yoke, time out of mind and others. If I was to say that a hebrew man or women was to conceal a veil around themselves, it is an ignorant question to ask are they doing it forever, or why not translated forevermore? LOL
I'm off and don't have time today.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 01-23-2010 at 12:09 PM..
There were several key points that brought me to understand that God will save all people:
1. God is sovereign over all, including my alleged "free-will". It probably took me a year to really accept this and give up the belief of free will. We just don't have a free will. We are clay. What we have is a limited will, that is bound by our desires and experiences.
2. aion/aionios is mistranslated as "eternal/forever". When I first read this, I admit it was hard to believe. How could such a mistranslation be true? But it did give a glimmer of hope. It took me several months to verify this as true for myself.
3. the mistranslation of the word "hell". Its pretty easy for anyone to show with about half an hour of study. The shenanigans of translating one word "hell" from 4 completely different words immediately set up a red flag that there was something wrong with my understanding of hell.
But I don't want to discuss these concepts much in this thread. This is just some background study you might want to do yourself. What I want to discuss is what really confirmed Universal salvation for me: the literally hundreds of scripture verses that all fit together in one way or another to show how God will achieve his plan of universal salvation. It will take me a bit of time and a few posts to show the bulk of scriptures I want to show. I would also like to cover scriptures that are quite often used to "prove" the existence of eternal hell, and explain how they do not really show that.
So before the onslaught of comments begin, give me a chance to get a couple posts up at least (if you please ). Let's begin:
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
When I first read these verses after learning about the possibility of universal salvation, I was amazed. It was like I had never read them before. How could I have missed them before? God will have all men to be saved! God is the savior of all mankind! Now of course people don't really believe what it says. They say it is only a desire that won't be achieved. Or they say its not really "all men". Its only those who believe. But none of these explanations sit with me as they all change the wording of the text.
Some bibles do translate 1 Tim 2:4 as a "desire" instead of God's will, but that doesn't really seem to matter with God, as He declares that He will achieve His desires. Do you believe these scriptures?:
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Job 23:13 But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases.
So God can achieve whatever He desires and no one can stop him. Seems logical, since He is God after all! Surely it will please God to achieve His desire and will to save all people, would it not? Is there a verse in the bible that says it is God's will and desire to torment people for eternity? I challenge you to find one. It doesn't exist.
What about man's choice; "free will" if you must call it that. People are all too quick to dismiss God's will and say man's free will must trump.
Isaiah 45:22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
This should make it crystal clear that everyone will willingly submit to Christ. They all swear allegiance! God has declared it will happen. Do you believe God? This is from the NASB version; the word for "swear" means to "swear an oath of loyalty or allegiance". You can also compare with Romans 14:11 and Phil 2:9-11 which also confirm that everyone "confesses". The "confession" is actually a willing acknowledgement of praise and joyous celebration.
This is just the tip of the good news. And on that note:
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
Remember, the angels told the shepherds it is great joy and good news for all the people.
I will stop here for now. Before everyone replies back to me saying "all doesn't mean all", I will try to get another post out this afternoon with more scripture.
Dar m'anam....You are a Calvinistic-Universalist...
I see how you work. You ignore everything others say, and we ignore what you say. Great internet missionary work you're doing there. I'm sure you'll convert lots of people.
You also totally failed to realize my point. What is the point of arguing of the existance of hell? Christians don't believe they are going there, and universalists don't believe it exists (or its temporary). So if both parties are saved, why argue? Arguing won't change anyones mind nor, in your viewpoint, will it save them. If there is no hell they need no saving. So the entire argument is fruitless.
So again, I'll tell you that you are wasting energy when you could be doing something that actually benefits or gives glory to God. Not all Christians threaten people with hell to convert believers, as anyone with common sense knows that really doesn't work too well. Likewise, nor does saying hell doesn't exist. Both parties are making everything God look like a discussion of hell and bantering. I don't think thats going to help anyone.
No one is wasting their time in fighting for whay they believe in on both sides. There are many lurkers here and for both sides I believe one always has that in mind.
Kudos to Legoman for standing up and showing the lurkers that side of God that is Love. I believe that we will have to pay for our sins but in the end God will not leave any one to suffer for eternity.
Aionios does mean eternal when used in that context. This is easily shown if anyone will simply do some HONEST research on it. Universalists rely on the principle that if you repeat a lie often enough, people begin to believe it.
So you don't believe the scriptures I posted?!? "If what you believe is true..." I posted scriptures. I guess you don't believe them. I will be posting more scriptures, hopefully soon.
Your understanding is darkened...
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If I was ignoring you, I wouldn't be responding to you.
I don't argue, I only present what is in the bible.
). Let's begin:
