Scriptures that proved to me Universal Salvation is true (Torah, celebrated, birthday)
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Clarification, or at least my view on it is:
The first Adam was created a living soul, meaning a fleshly body possessing a conscience.
That the offspring of the first Adam begun the multiplication of mankind in the flesh.
Because, as the book of Genesis states, knowledge of good and evil made Adam a separate entity from God, thus the separation, or better understood death.
Yes, God is the Father of Adam, as a son of God, yet separated from God let to his death spiritually.
So all offspring of the first Adam are as dead spiritually, classified as "son of man" and not son of God.
Enter: The second Adam = Jesus.
Jesus is the Son of God incarnate and not separate from God, but as one with God, yet in the flesh.
So there can be no separation from or death accounted to Him. I'm talking spiritual death.
Now, Jesus came to fulfill the letter of the law as God, thus purchasing with His blood the souls of all humanity.
Only the righteousness of God could/can produce salvation for an individual, and nothing of what we could add to it would matter.
Now listen to this carefully to digest this thought: If Jesus, in one day purchased the souls of mankind, then at that point is when mankind was created.
Created as a new creature, one that will not die, but live forever.
So that makes Christ the alpha and the Omega, the beginning of the end.
The end of the lost condition of the first Adam, and the beginning of mankind as a new creation, a new creature.
All offspring from that creation are sons of God, in Jesus!
God did not forget all those who lived and died prior the the coming of Jesus, for they to, were included in that one day, the day Jesus paid the price.
Therefore, all who as of this moment on, find Jesus and trust to believe in Him by faith are born again, as new creatures.
That is the good news regardless of how anybody else wants to paint it.
I stand firm on the foundation that Jesus Christ has laid, and no winds of doctrines can sway me away.
If I may I would like to suggest that head and heart are synominous in some cultures. That the esoteric lessons taught in all scred scriptures whiile they are meant to be applicable to ones everyday life are applicable first to the inner community of the psyche common to all individuals (universallly) and the chracters (emotions and attitutes, urges and desires) that embody that arena/realm of our being. So, even if the flesh came first and then the Consciouness within it or vice versa, flesh born of Consciousness, that is to say Consciousness is responsible for the creation of the flesh, iow, Consciousness is in our DNA, the schock of birth causes a temporal lapse in memory in memory for the constricted and limited temporal consciousness but not for the Cosmic Consciousness which contains it. Therefore 'God' in his, for lck of a better word, swoon or temporary forgetfulness, forgets as it were His Godliness, restricts himself, and in doing so becomes flesh. A God-man, we all are, as it were, until we are awakened from individuality, by the grace of our true essence to our true nature. To Oneness, Unity as the Nation of Mankind, and the Peace, Love and Equanimty of the Spirit in all.
Namaste`
Om Namah Shivaya
Ocean Drifter
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Agreed Mr. Cavendish, all scripture is true and profitable for doctrine, reproof, and correction.
What we must understand is that some of the bibles we have are not completely accurate translations of the original scripture. The scriptures on "hell"/gehenna are one case in point. To focus on them as proof of eternal suffering & punishment while ignoring all the verses that speak of universal salvation is foolishness.
To understand the truth of universal salvation, one must begin to understand what these verses on Gehenna are really talking about. Its not an eternal hell of suffering and torment. It could be a reference to the lake of fire (but that is debatable even amongst those who believe UR).
What Jesus meant about Gehenna
Gehenna which is translated as "hell" in some bibles, was the literal valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burnt up. Jesus used the word "gehenna" as a symbol of judgment: It was very dishonorable to be thrown there, it meant you were a criminal not worthy of a proper burial. If you want to understand what Jesus was saying, we should look at the first place He talks about Gehenna, in Matt 5:22 (and Mark 9, etc):
Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].
Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?
NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. See how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment.
No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least)
The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:
[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
So we can see these are all different types of judgment:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause - hating is just as bad as killing)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom
In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.
Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.
This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".
So based on Jesus OWN words, we can see that Gehenna is simply talking about judgment, NOT eternal hell fire.
The witnessing of awareness can persist through waking, dreaming and deep sleep. The Witness is fully available in any state, including your own present state of awareness right now. So I'm going to talk you into this state, or try to, using what are known in Buddhism as "pointing out instructions." I am not going to try to get you into a different state of consciousness, or an altered state of consciousness, or a non-ordinary state. I am going to simply point out something that is already occurring in your own present, ordinary, natural state. So let's start by just being aware of the world around us. Look out there at the sky, and just relax your mind; let your mind and the sky mingle. Notice the clouds floating by. Notice that this takes no effort on your part. Your present awareness, in which these clouds are floating, is very simple, very easy, effortless, spontaneous. You simply notice that there is an effortless awareness of the clouds. The same is true of those trees, and those birds, and those rocks. You simply and effortlessly witness them. Look now at the sensations in your own body. You can be aware of whatever bodily feelings are present-perhaps pressure where you are sitting, perhaps warmth in your tummy, maybe tightness in your neck. But even if these feelings are tight and tense, you can easily be aware of them. These feelings arise in your present awareness, and that awareness is very simple, easy, effortless, spontaneous. You simply and effortlessly witness them. Look at the thoughts arising in your mind. You might notice various images, symbols, concepts, desires, hopes and fears, all spontaneously arising in your awareness. They arise, stay a bit, and pass. These thoughts and feelings arise in your present awareness, and that awareness is very simple, effortless, spontaneous. You simply and effortlessly witness them. So notice: you can see the clouds float by because you are not those clouds-you are the witness of those clouds. You can feel bodily feelings because you are not those feelings-you are the witness of those feelings. You can see thoughts float by because you are not those thoughts-you are the witness of those thoughts. Spontaneously and naturally, these things all arise, on their own, in your present, effortless awareness. So who are you? You are not objects out there, you are not feelings, you are not thoughts-you are effortlessly aware of all those, so you are not those. Who or what are you? Say it this way to yourself: I have feelings, but I am not those feelings. Who am I? I have thoughts, but I am not those thoughts. Who am I? I have desires, but I am not those desires. Who am I? So you push back into the source of your own awareness. You push back into the Witness, and you rest in the Witness. I am not objects, not feelings, not desires, not thoughts. But then people usually make a big mistake. They think that if they rest in the Witness, they are going to see something or feel something-something really neat and special. But you won't see anything. If you see something, that is just another object-another feeling, another thought, another sensation, another image. But those are all objects; those are what you are not. No, as you rest in the Witness-realizing, I am not objects, I am not feelings, I am not thoughts-all you will notice is a sense of freedom, a sense of liberation, a sense of release-release from the terrible constriction of identifying with these puny little finite objects, your little body and little mind and little ego, all of which are objects that can be seen, and thus are not the true Seer, the real Self, the pure Witness, which is what you really are. So you won't see anything in particular. Whatever is arising is fine. Clouds float by in the sky, feelings float by in the body, thoughts float by in the mind-and you can effortlessly witness all of them. They all spontaneously arise in your own present, easy, effortless awareness. And this witnessing awareness is not itself anything specific you can see. It is just a vast, background sense of freedom-or pure emptiness-and in that pure emptiness, which you are, the entire manifest world arises. You are that freedom, openness, emptiness-and not any itty bitty thing that arises in it. Resting in that empty, free, easy, effortless witnessing, notice that the clouds are arising in the vast space of your awareness. The clouds are arising within you-so much so, you can taste the clouds, you are one with the clouds. It is as if they are on this side of your skin, they are so close. The sky and your awareness have become one, and all things in the sky are floating effortlessly through your own awareness. You can kiss the sun, swallow the mountain, they are that close. Zen says "Swallow the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp," and that's the easiest thing in the world, when inside and outside are no longer two, when subject and object are nondual, when the looker and looked at are One Taste. You see?
The Allegory of The Garden of Eden is like a childrens story book.
The characters are
Adam, God-made, god/self-righteous man.
Eve, The wayward soul of that self-righteous god-made man. (See the 'rub' in this?)
Serpent, the capacity to 'rationalize' a truth, for our own 'betterment' (being a psychological/physiological 'tradeoff' of wills, if you will that affect the state of mankind... I pray that christianslearn as chidren, then let go of their childish way of literalizing everything they read. Heaven as you know, is a phantasy land for the Spirit and The Play of Consciousness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Clarification, or at least my view on it is:
The first Adam was created a living soul, meaning a fleshly body possessing a conscience.
That the offspring of the first Adam begun the multiplication of mankind in the flesh
Because, as the book of Genesis states, knowledge of good and evil made Adam a separate entity from God, thus the separation, or better understood death.
Yes, God is the Father of Adam, as a son of God, yet separated from God let to his death spiritually.
So all offspring of the first Adam are as dead spiritually, classified as "son of man" and not son of God.
Enter: The second Adam = Jesus.
Jesus is the Son of God incarnate and not separate from God, but as one with God, yet in the flesh.
So there can be no separation from or death accounted to Him. I'm talking spiritual death.
Now, Jesus came to fulfill the letter of the law as God, thus purchasing with His blood the souls of all humanity.
Only the righteousness of God could/can produce salvation for an individual, and nothing of what we could add to it would matter.
Now listen to this carefully to digest this thought: If Jesus, in one day purchased the souls of mankind, then at that point is when mankind was created.
Created as a new creature, one that will not die, but live forever.
So that makes Christ the alpha and the Omega, the beginning of the end.
The end of the lost condition of the first Adam, and the beginning of mankind as a new creation, a new creature.
All offspring from that creation are sons of God, in Jesus!
God did not forget all those who lived and died prior the the coming of Jesus, for they to, were included in that one day, the day Jesus paid the price.
Therefore, all who as of this moment on, find Jesus and trust to believe in Him by faith are born again, as new creatures.
That is the good news regardless of how anybody else wants to paint it.
I stand firm on the foundation that Jesus Christ has laid, and no winds of doctrines can sway me away.
The reason I used Muhhamad, and Moses's Law as an example is much like my own Spiritual development Pleroo, if we look at each of the individual dispensations of messengers of God, they are like the different grades in an educational system, freshman, sophomore, etc., etc., each 'manifestation of God' taking us to a higher level of understanding the Ultra Altruistic 'God concept', revealing and elaborating a little more of the original divine message from previous 'Prophets' dispensations.
I have to interact to put what I understand/know into practice, and I'm not perfect at it like the example of Jesus.
I suppose like the messengers of God in the world and their 'Progressive Revelation' by the divine in them.
My own spiritual developement, according to my interactions in the world, is progressive also, but only as well as I live it and put it into action, for the ascent of society.
I'm simply a work in progress, and currently under construction.
I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, that has never been my purpose.
It is not 'my' teaching, it is the teaching of 'He' who sent me.
Thanks Pleroo, for your input.
"I" am nothing
I am Nothing
"I" AM NOTHING.
"I AM", NO-THING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
To reply to your edited addition:
Am I better? Who cares? I didn't think spiritual enlightenment was about comparisons and one-upsmanship? If that is I AM's idea of a grander reality, if it's really just about retaliation and giving no better than what you get, then I'm not interested. But perhaps you've misunderstood I AM. I can hope that is the case.
Last edited by Ocean Drifter; 02-21-2010 at 06:43 AM..
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17)
That includes ALL scripture.
"And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:16-21)
Glad to see you again my friend Mr. Cavendish.
A small candle can light a cave darkened for a thousand years.
I agree with the first declaration, 'of the least, your view'.
The 'first' Adam like the second was a living soul 'in a story book for children' and not real at all, except in a child, adult, parents imagination.
"You are not your story" ~Echardt Tolle
You add your own 'meaning' arbitrarily when you say, against all scientific proofs I might add, you or anybody else knows of the 'first man', which is by the way hundreds of thousands of years old, yours is a partiarchal and merely suggestive as others have suggested it before you, point of view that doesn't fly in the face of Archeology (Lucy) or Science ( carbon-dating).
Darwin made a monkey out of us all.
Bahaullah sates quite inarguably that the soul comes into being at the time of conception which suggest that in this realm of the multiverse world the flesh came first. If the soul 'comes into being' where does it come from, all sacred scripture and science says that energy cannot be destroyed, but it can be converted/changed (characteristically). Doesn't that make you think?
How can we reconcile all three?
We can't, except to look at it through the eyes of the truth.
Look and you may see.
Jesus the Christ, is an archtype in the psyche/mind, for the perfected (conditional, based on his spiritual condition) human being, non-gender-specific, period.
Wake up man!
Your emotions are carrying you away, just like a woman in the physical sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Clarification, or at least my view on it is:
The first Adam was created a living soul, meaning a fleshly body possessing a conscience.That the offspring of the first Adam begun the multiplication of mankind in the flesh.
Because, as the book of Genesis states, knowledge of good and evil made Adam a separate entity from God, thus the separation, or better understood death.
Yes, God is the Father of Adam, as a son of God, yet separated from God let to his death spiritually.
So all offspring of the first Adam are as dead spiritually, classified as "son of man" and not son of God.
Enter: The second Adam = Jesus.
Jesus is the Son of God incarnate and not separate from God, but as one with God, yet in the flesh.
So there can be no separation from or death accounted to Him. I'm talking spiritual death.
Now, Jesus came to fulfill the letter of the law as God, thus purchasing with His blood the souls of all humanity.
Only the righteousness of God could/can produce salvation for an individual, and nothing of what we could add to it would matter.
Now listen to this carefully to digest this thought: If Jesus, in one day purchased the souls of mankind, then at that point is when mankind was created.
Created as a new creature, one that will not die, but live forever.
So that makes Christ the alpha and the Omega, the beginning of the end.
The end of the lost condition of the first Adam, and the beginning of mankind as a new creation, a new creature.
All offspring from that creation are sons of God, in Jesus!
God did not forget all those who lived and died prior the the coming of Jesus, for they to, were included in that one day, the day Jesus paid the price.
Therefore, all who as of this moment on, find Jesus and trust to believe in Him by faith are born again, as new creatures.
That is the good news regardless of how anybody else wants to paint it.
I stand firm on the foundation that Jesus Christ has laid, and no winds of doctrines can sway me away.
Blessings, AJ
Last edited by Ocean Drifter; 02-21-2010 at 07:30 AM..
The reason I used Muhhamad, and Moses's Law as an example is much like my own Spiritual development Pleroo, if we look at each of the individual dispensations of messengers of God, they are like the different grades in an educational system, freshman, sophomore, etc., etc., each 'manifestation of God' taking us to a higher level of understanding the Ultra Altruistic 'God concept', revealing and elaborating a little more of the original divine message from previous 'Prophets' dispensations.
Or possibly it's not a steady progression, but ebb and flow, fits and spurts, hopefully moving forward gradually. Just a thought.
Quote:
I have to interact to put what I understand/know into practice, and I'm not perfect at it like the example of Jesus.
I see Jesus as more than an example. He declared himself to be the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father but by him. When one finds truth and life, one has found him, whether they realize it or not. Again, just my thoughts.
Quote:
I suppose like the messengers of God in the world and their 'Progressive Revelation' by the divine in them.
My own spiritual developement, according to my interactions in the world, is progressive also, but only as well as I live it and put it into action, for the ascent of society.
I'm simply a work in progress, and currently under construction.
I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, that has never been my purpose.
It is not 'my' teaching, it is the teaching of 'He' who sent me.
Thank you for explaining, Ocean. I apologize for misunderstanding.
quote=Pleroo "Or possibly it's not a steady progression, but ebb and flow, fits and spurts, hopefully moving forward gradually. Just a thought."
Spiritual progression is progress, the ebb and flow is of the material, I am refering to what by contrast is the immaterial, two sides of the same proverbial coin, Pleroo. We as individuals move in ebbs and flows like the waves of the Ocean, but the Ocean is always the Ocean and waves are contained within it but not can not caontain the whole of the Ocean. The waves are reflections of the Ocean, the ocean is within each wave but contaied by the wave. Like the picture is not the Painter but the Painter is within the picture.
quote=Pleroo, "I see Jesus as more than an example. He declared himself to be the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father but by him. When one finds truth and life, one has found him, whether they realize it or not. Again, just my thoughts."
Jesus said "I AM is The Way", impersonal. [see previous post earlier where the impersonal of I AM is explained in more detail]. He wasn't speaking in material terms, or in the terms of a 's'elf, but the immaterial state of that being I Am is as SELF, which He alluded to.
This is a very superficial understanding of I AM that you have proposed, based upon your mis-interprertation/understanding of scripture [and not at all an uncommon mis-understanding] as most so-called "Christians are guilty of the same superficial mis-understanding, seeing Jesus as the man, instead of the Spirit he was sent as and came to represent.
"Why do you speak the truth to us, but speak to them in parables?
For you it is to know for them it is not.
"For those who have eyes, let them see."
"For those with ears let them hear."
I have much more to tell that for now you cannot understand.
To lose oneself (soul) in this world (physical/flesh) is to gain one Self in the hereafter(meta-physical/Spirit).
The love of this world places one at enmity with God.
Man cannot serve two masters.
Thank you for explaining, Ocean. I apologize for misunderstanding.
No apologies necessary Love/ Brother/Sister/Self.
I AM That I AM, and you are too.
In That we are one.
I hope that you see the universality of sacred scripture as the uncommon will of God's grace to mankind, our common denominator, if I may, and not to any individually 'special' group or sect. This includes so called "Christians" and so called "Muslims". Any sect or group other than Spiritualist or 'Universalists', as the name implies, for we are all one.
Thank you for the opportunity to explain my understanding which is not of me but, of the grace bestowed upon me by the Father/Cosmic Consciousness, relatively speaking of course. Lol
The Allegory of The Garden of Eden is like a childrens story book.
The characters are
Adam, God-made, god/self-righteous man.
Eve, The wayward soul of that self-righteous god-made man. (See the 'rub' in this?)
Serpent, the capacity to 'rationalize' a truth, for our own 'betterment' (being a psychological/physiological 'tradeoff' of wills, if you will that affect the state of mankind... I pray that christianslearn as chidren, then let go of their childish way of literalizing everything they read. Heaven as you know, is a phantasy land for the Spirit and The Play of Consciousness.
Yes. Thank you Drifter.
If you study the Genesis story about Adam & Eve, then you will see that everything in the garden of Eden from the forbidden fruit to serpent are figurative and symbolic.
ADAM & EVE is just a parable, to explain the complex nature of creation.
Jesus Christ said that all those great mysteries of the universe were revealed to those who were spiritually awake but to others must be told in parables.
Salvation is realising the true knowledge that there is only ONE and NOT TWO
"Death came through Adam and salvation from death came through Jesus Christ."
Jesus and Adam are the same ONE.
Before men are life and death.
Whatever they choose is given to them [ECCLESIASTIC 15:16]
If you live according to flesh you will die, but if by spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live[ROMANS 8:12]
The DEATH that is associated with ORIGINAL SIN is not biological death.
It is the spiritual death.
Salvation is realising the true knowledge that there is only ONE and NOT TWO
Each one of us have to work and achieve salvation of self-realization through one of the 4 methods: * JNANA YOGA [ path of knowledge] *KARMA YOGA [Path of unattached, unmotivated actions] *BHAKTI YOGA [ complete self-surrender to the God within] *RAJA YOGA [ pranayama & breath control]
The Holy Bible carries a lot of symbolism and it will be wrong to come to hasty literal conclusions.
The whole story of Adam & Eve, is the figment of imagination of great Jewish seers, to explain the difficult and complex nature of creation.
Almost everything in that is symbolic. *ADAM is the symbolism for INTELLECT *EVE is the symbolism for SENSES *SERPENT is the symbolism for INERT WEAKNESS * TREE is the symbolism for DUALITY OF GOOD AND BAD * GOD is the symbolism for the IMMORTAL SOUL WITHIN
What is Original Sin?
It is the act by which man attained the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil…..
In a nutshell, Adam and Eve learned Duality Concept by eating the forbidden fruit causing the fall of man.
The illusion of twoness / duality.
GOD is neither good nor bad.
Man due to his limited knowledge sees God with attributes without realizing the fact that God has no attributes.
God is timeless.
To project God as good and all loving, those adjectives of God are purely man-made.
Unless and until we achieve ONENESS, we will never have peace.
That ONENESS we can achieve only within us.
As long as we perceive Duality, all types of wars will go on.
Many religions of today are still fighting and squabbling over the Gods of their own understandings needlessly.
Last edited by Mr Cavendish; 02-21-2010 at 12:24 PM..
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