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I agree with legoman - who are any of us to think that what is revealed in the ages to come are known to us? We're all (true uni's and true fundy's) reading and using scripture as it is revealed to us - yet I will say this:
None of this affects my relationship with Him as my savior, nor do I consider any who've accepted Him as anything less than my brother or sister in Christ. What we're debating here is simply God's ability, intention and plan for the ages as we have been led to believe - nothing more.
(I would appreciate it if the cries of "other paths than Christ" would understand that we trust and follow Jesus - just sayin'. )
Is that what we really debating? Are we really that similar Elmer? Many in the universalist camp because of the no hell doctrine also disbelieve many other doctrines like justification, trinity and a slew of others that are in the category of essential doctrines of salvation.
Are we really that similar? Our gospels sound nothing alike.
I have no doubt that the main stumbling block for the christian to believe in the restitution of all things is this one you mentioned Lego.
Because the fear of hell is so strong that people will not even think on anything that could oppose that belief, for fear they go to hell themselves.
The reason i say this is because the more i read this forum the more clear it's becoming that christians base their faith on what they believe rather than who they believe in. Their belief is their salvation (if i believe all the right things i'm saved) and not Jesus himself. So doubting their belief is doubting their salvation.
I am glad you finally admit that you are a universalist. Pcamps I really don't know where to begin because it just doesn't make sense what you said. I have read it 10 times and still can't make heads or tails of this.
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base their faith on what they believe rather than who they believe in
I am not trying to be difficult or rude but just pointing out you really need to work on this. Belief is belief
If anyone wants to be serious to themselves and to God's Word then they CANNOT and WILL NOT remain in the embracement of eternal torment. It falls logic and reason (both of which God gave us).
Better, smarter, more gifted, more serious, more loving, more reasonable and more logical than you translates it as eternal. or are you saying, you are all those things? Is that pride?
I am glad you finally admit that you are a universalist. Pcamps I really don't know where to begin because it just doesn't make sense what you said. I have read it 10 times and still can't make heads or tails of this.
I am not trying to be difficult or rude but just pointing out you really need to work on this. Belief is belief
I believe in the restitution of all things you can tag me with that if you like , no problem even though i have never once said that i am a universalist.
My Salvation is dependent solely on what He did at Calvary and does not become vunerable if i reject the doctrines of fundamental christianity ,reject universalism or any other ism out there .
The error which fundamentalists keep saying the universalists are in is their belief, and due to them being in error with their belief they are heading for ET . This is a clear indication that fundamental christianity believes in a system of belief for salvation instead of Christ alone.
There is absolutely nowhere in the New Covenant where it says you have to believe in Jesus along with you have to believe in hell,the rapture and a host of other stuff as proof of your salvation.
Abraham believed God period and He is the Father of faith.
The universalists ignore the very words of Jesus Himself when He says in
Matthew 25:41''Then 'He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Dear Mike, Jesus never used the word "eternal." He always used the word "aionios" when attached to punishment. If He wanted us to know the punishment would be never ending He would have used the word: aperantos. All aionios means (being an adjective) is telling us of that which pertains to the eon(s). So the punishment can't be eternal.
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Matthew 10:28 'And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'
"Hell" is not the word Christ used. He used "Gehenna." Gehenna, being the trash dump outside jerusalem can't be eternal because it will be done away with when the earth is destroyed. The new earth won't have a Gehenna on it. Also, did not Jesus tell His disciples if they destroy their souls they would get them back later? yes He did.
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They ignore or reject
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thtown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
You mean "for the ages of the ages" which are the final two ages to come. AFter that God will save all.
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Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I fail to see how this contradicts God when He said He will save all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4-6. We believe many will be thrown into the lake of fire but it is called the second death. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 shows that death being abolished in the future so God can be All in all.
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In complete and total contradiction of the word of God, the universalist spouts off about the Satanic heresy of universal salvation. Who do you think it is who wants to make men believe that there is no grave concern about believing in Christ for salvation, because Hey, what the heck everyone is just going to be saved anyway, so what's the hurry. Just don't worry about believing in Christ. God is just a doting grandfatherly type who closes His eyes to sin and simply can't get along without us. This is what the universalist would have others think.
Obviously the above is spoken in total ignorance of our stance. It is actually the doctrine of demons called eternal torment which turns people into devils, causing them to drown their children, put poison in cool-aid to kill off their church, make people commit suicide etc. etc.
#1 because they believe, they would live a righteous life in vain and are jealous on people who would enjoy a life of sinful pleasures without any consequences
#2 because they don't understand that also without hell there is a possibility of severe and long-enduring judgment and because they don't understand biblical universalism (maybe because it was never presented to them properly) and mix it up with unscriptural belief systems of universalism
#3 a spirit of personal vengeance, they want some people to suffer in hell, the churchfather Tertullian is a good example for such a mindset
#4 because they are convinced the bible teaches it and denying it would be denying the bible, though the do not like the idea, but for some reason they refuse to examine the issue critically
#5 because they believe, the threat of hell is necessary to keep people in line (wether they believe hell is actually real or not, possibly the Churchfathers Chrysostom and Jerome did so)
#6 because some believe it is in fact a just punishment and a scriptural reality though they do not long for personal vengeance
I congradulate you Svem on your understanding except for the part that hell keeps people in line that is not scriptural nor would true Christians believe that. Furthermore the sinful pride, jealousy etc...that leads people to the belief of eternal torment is probably true but what are your sins for leading you to the belief of universalism? or you don't have any?
I believe some Christians simply think of the doctrine of hell and eternal torment as being practical for compelling people to be good. Actually this is a reiteration of #5 above in SvenMs post ...
No that is not scriptural nor would a true Christian believe that. A true Christian knows no one is good and there is no good we can do that will find favor in God's eyes without the blood, that our "good" deeds are of filthy rags to God. You misunderstand the hell doctrine, the hell doctrine is not to keep people in line, far from it if anything it shows even more the magnitude of God's love for us that He would be brutalized in every way, taken on our sins, and be killed so He could save us from such a horrible fate and makes us hold on to the cross even tighter and want to tell the whole world about Jesus
That the understanding that it's the life of Christ that's the enabling to live righteously - and not the aforementioned fear of hell - is lost on most who follow...blindly?
In other words, is it Love that bought us, sought us, and caught us - or fear?
Elmer you of people should know fear of the Lord is a good thing but if you understand the fear of hell makes us live righteously then you have a grave misunderstand of the hell doctrine my friend. Hell is used to warn the unbeliever of his or her coming judgment, it is a wake up call to their sin and the seriousness of their sin which so casually brush aside and when they understand that they are a sinner and in need of a savior the love sets in as the Holy Spirits works on them and then and only then can they appreciate the sacrifice on the cross. Hell is not a fear for the saved Elmer.
The current day Christian hellers are like the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes who fought Christ tooth and nail . . . due to ignorance. Christians are born into a world system run by Satan in which the masses are brainwashed to believe there is an eternal hell.
So they think they are doing God a favor by fighting for their hell doctrine just like the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes thought they were doing God a favor by killing off Christ and his disciples. But just because the current hellers are in the majority does not make them any more right than those in the majority in Christ's day who killed Him and His disciples.
We are not to bang our heads against the wall just because the hellers hate the light and won't come to the light. We are just to continue like Christ and the disciples to stand for the truth and herald the truth even if the majority wants to kill us.
You have a real bad habit of calling people names. I severely suggest you pray about that habit...so in your understanding of the hell doctrine you liken Christians who believe in hell as Pharisees and yourself as a Jesus and the disciples? WOW! that is a bit self righteous.
That is true that the majority doesn't always mean being right but it doesn't mean they are wrong either and frankly doesn't really help your case.
So you think the majority of true Christians will want to kill you..again WOW! Moderator cut: Accusatory
It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep believing in eternal torment if you follow the TWO COMMANDS with every single inch of your heart. This is not for the meek. A lot of stuff has to be burned off of you in order to follow these two commands. It is why God gave them to us. Knowledge of His true character will NOT be realized until following these two commands have prepared a man's heart....
And once God reveals that beautiful truth... then the love in your heart, well you've never seen anything like it in all of your life.
It allows you to see with your HEART and not just with your eyes. And that is vital to understanding God's magnificent plan.
Well, I don't want to get off topic by starting to give a testimony to what this truth has done in my life (though I always want to, I want to shout it from the rooftops constantly all day long... but I'll put the tape over my mouth and keep this on topic.)
(smile.)
peace.
Sparrow thank you for your beautiful, heartfelt response and really don't have much to respond except for one thing. Are you saying, that you are more loving and faithful than EVERY Christian that believes in eternal torment, if not then why don't they believe in universalism as well?
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