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You are not qualified to be the judge of when Enoch wrote Enoch, as you only take what ignorant men say, as your doctrine, so as to prop up your most empty, biblically unfounded doctrine.
And FYI, the copies of 1 Enoch discovered in the Qumran caved, that the Essenes of the Dead Sea used as sacred Scripture to study, date to the third century, B.C. but they are only copies of copies of copies.....
You don't even have a complete Hebrew OT that dates to that age, and certainly all the Greek copies of the NT date to the fifth century AD, I think it is.
And in the Genesis Apocryphon, discovered in the Qumran caves, Abram read from the book of Enoch to the men of Pharaoh [only about forty years after the fall of the tower of Babel].
And 1 Enoch was always included in the "canon-list" of sacred writings of the Ethiopian NT Church, from the beginning of the Church, because, as converted to Christ Jews, they had ENoch and did not ban it as the Christ rejecting Jews did, after Jesus rose from the dead, and as Rome did, following the Christ rejecting Jews, almost 400 years after the NT Church called Enoch "Scripture", and used it -which they did because Jesus and His womb brothers also did. Bible Study: Which Bible? Whose Canon?
Even the Jews didn't canonize this mystical book into the Septuagint or the tenahk... why is that?
Because it resembles the UFO tales we have now of human DNA being tainted by out-of-this-world beings!
Do you also believe in an Alien race sleeping with human women?
I have a really hard time with the book of Enoch. Obviously it wasn't written by Enoch.. that has been proven by scholars. It was common for pious Jews to write in the name of great biblical characters... what sect of judaism wrote the book of Enoch? The mystical Jews... the ones condemned by their peers for their anti-biblical mysticism...
Anyway.. I wouldn't use a book that states angels wanted to and did have sex with humans... That is just absurd to me..
Eusebius;
Why do you believe God was silent about everything He said and did, from the beginning of the world, until Moses, three thousand years ago? -
I don't believe He was silent about EVERYTHING. He gave very explicit instructions to Adam and Even and the consequences should they disobey. "Hell" was not in those consequences.
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apparently you believe that everyone born of Adam, in the entire world, from the beginning of the world, had not one word of doctrine on the matter of salvation and His plan for the world, until Moses, for if you believe that God was silent on the doctrine of Sheol and of the lake of fire, then you also believe that God was silent on the matter of righteousness and of salvation through the Son of Man, which was to come.
Adam and Eve had to have told their offspring about what happened in the garden. It is just that Hell was never mentioned or you can best bet they'd have told someone!
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You also believe God was silent and never had a prophet to teach His righteousness until Moses came, three thousand years after the world was created.
The point is the Book of Enoch was begun around 300 B.C. and finished around 100 B.C. A little late don't you think for the original Enoch, the son of Cain, to get the word out to the masses of humanity before the flood?
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You make no case at all for your doctrine of the silence of God before Moses wrote, for even Paul said that the mouth of all God's holy prophets have spoken of the restitution of all things [by Jesus Christ] "since the world began".
Really? Paul said that? Let's look at some over translations:
Luke 1:70
(ALT) just as He spoke through [the] mouth of His holy prophets, the [ones] from antiquity,
(ASV) (As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets that have been from of old),
(BBE) As he said, by the mouth of his holy prophets, from the earliest times,
(CLV) According as He speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets, who are from the eon; "
(GNB) He promised through his holy prophets long ago
(YLT) As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets, Which have been from the age;
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"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began".
Act 3:21
(ALT) whom it is necessary [for] heaven indeed to receive until [the] times of restoration of all [things] of which God spoke by [the] mouth of all His holy prophets from [the earliest] age.
(ASV) whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old.
(BBE) Who is to be kept in heaven till the time when all things are put right, of which God has given word by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been from the earliest times.
(CLV) Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.
(GNB) He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.
(WNT) Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things.
(YLT) whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.
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Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures/writings,)
Jude tells us that Enoch was a prophet who spoke of Jesus, from the beginning -the seventh from Adam: and Enoch was not the first prophet [and teacher of righteousness], as the book of Jasher testifies, but we have Enoch's writings in the book of 1 Enoch -Ethiopian Encoh [and the book of the Giants in the Dead Sea Scrolls]; and Jesus had Enoch's writings and preached from them about Himself and all doctrines Enoch wrote of, and Jesus' womb brothers, James and Jude, had Enoch's writings; and Noah and Shem ...and Abraham ...and Moses ...and David, and all the prophets, had Enoch's writings "from the beginning".
Let's look at some glaring discrepencies between Jude 1:14 and Enoch 1:9 . . .
Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesies to these also, saying, "Lo! the Lord came among ten thousand of His saints, (15) to do judging against all, and to expose all the irreverent concerning all their irreverent acts in which they are irreverent, and concerning all the hard words which irreverent sinners speak against Him." Jude 1:14-15 CLV
. . . Behold, he will arrive with ten million of the holy ones in order to execute judgment upon all. He will destroy the wicked ones and censure all flesh on account of everything that they have done, that which the sinners and the wicked ones committed against him. - Enoch 1:9
Looking at the two passages reveals some glaring differences. First, Jude refers to "ten thousand" of His saints, but Enoch refers to "millions." Jude says that God will "expose" all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be "destroyed." The rest of the two passages disagree in wording in minor ways. Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude quoted Enoch. Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit, we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. Therefore Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts.
God never told Adam and Eve or Enoch, or Cain or Noah that they would go to hell if they sin. He never told Moses to tell Israel that if they sin in breaking His law they'd go to hell. He did, however, tell them they would receive all the curses in the law should they fail to keep it. "Hell" was never mentioned.
Even the Jews didn't canonize this mystical book into the Septuagint or the tenahk... why is that?
Because it resembles the UFO tales we have now of human DNA being tainted by out-of-this-world beings!
Do you also believe in an Alien race sleeping with human women?
I have a really hard time with the book of Enoch. Obviously it wasn't written by Enoch.. that has been proven by scholars. It was common for pious Jews to write in the name of great biblical characters... what sect of judaism wrote the book of Enoch? The mystical Jews... the ones condemned by their peers for their anti-biblical mysticism...
Anyway.. I wouldn't use a book that states angels wanted to and did have sex with humans... That is just absurd to me..
MY 2 Cents..
Especially since Jesus said the angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage. How come? No sex parts!
Even the Jews didn't canonize this mystical book into the Septuagint or the tenahk... why is that?
It is not of Moses, and they did use it, as the history of it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt.[/quote]
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
I have a really hard time with the book of Enoch. Obviously it wasn't written by Enoch.. that has been proven by scholars. It was common for pious Jews to write in the name of great biblical characters... what sect of judaism wrote the book of Enoch? The mystical Jews... the ones condemned by their peers for their anti-biblical mysticism...
Anyway.. I wouldn't use a book that states angels wanted to and did have sex with humans... That is just absurd to me..
MY 2 Cents..
Obviously it was written by Enoch, and that is proven by correlating it with the OT and NT. Your excuses against it are your own biased agenda of dismissal -following the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century and the Roman Church of the fourth century.
And Enoch is not a Jewish book. There is not a thing in it that is "Jewish". That is why the Christ rejecting Jews rejected ENoch after Jesus came and rose form the dead, as it was all foretold in Enoch, they rejected Jesus and the revelation of Him in Enoch.
And Moses also told us about what went on with the fallen watchers, in Genesis 6, when they went in to the daughters of Adam [had sexual relations with them] and giants were born, before the flood and also after.
I read it's possible that part of Enoch was even written AFTER Jude, and that Jude was quoting from another source or direction inspiration.
You better get a true source of history, as Enoch was discovered in the DSS manuscripts -many copies of it, because they studied it as sacred Scripture- and the copies of it from there date to the third century BC -and that is only the copies. We don't even have Hebrew OT copies that date to that long ago, and our copies date to centuries after Jesus was resurrected, just as our Greek manuscripts of the NT also do.
Especially since Jesus said the angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage. How come? No sex parts!
No Jesus did not say that. Jesus said what Enoch revealed from the mouth of God the Great Glory [who was God the Word who is now come in flesh of second creation and is Jesus Christ], in heaven, on His throne;that "the angels in heaven do not marry and are not given in marriage", and that the Sadducees erred for not knowing that Scripture which Enoch wrote by revelation, and that ENoch wrote that in the resurrection the saints would be equal with, as, the angels in heaven and would not marry nor given in marraige.
When the [watcher] angels come down to earth, they appear as men, states the Word of God, because first, Enoch said so, by revelation. The fallen ones decided to not go back to heaven and to leave their first estate so as to remain in bodies like Adam kind, and so to marry daughters of Adam, states Enoch.
The Scripture that Enoch wrote, by revelation, that the Sadducees erred, not knowing:
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[Chapter 14]
1 The book of the words of righteousness, and of the reprimand of the eternal Watchers in accordance 2 with the command of the Holy Great One in that vision. I saw in my sleep what I will now say with a tongue of flesh and with the breath of my mouth: which the Great One has given to men to 3 converse therewith and understand with the heart. As He has created and given to man the power of understanding the word of wisdom, so hath He created me also and given me the power of reprimanding 4 the Watchers, the children of heaven.
I wrote out your petition, and in my vision it appeared thus, that your petition will not be granted unto you throughout all the days of eternity, and that judgement 5 has been finally passed upon you: yea (your petition) will not be granted unto you.
And from henceforth you shall not ascend into heaven unto all eternity, and in bonds of the earth the decree 6 has gone forth to bind you for all the days of the world.
And (that) previously you shall have seen the destruction of your beloved sons and ye shall have no pleasure in them, but they shall fall before 7 you by the sword. And your petition on their behalf shall not be granted, nor yet on your own: even though you weep and pray and speak all the words contained in the writing which I have 8 written.
And the vision was shown to me thus: Behold, in the vision clouds invited me and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in 9 the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven. And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright 10 me. And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor (made) of crystals, and its groundwork was 11 of crystal. Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were 12 fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water.
A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its 13 portals blazed with fire. And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there 14 were no delights of life therein: fear covered me, and trembling got hold upon me.
And as I quaked 15 and trembled, I fell upon my face. And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater 16 than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to 17 you its splendour and its extent.
And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path 18 of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of 19 cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look 20 thereon. And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and 21 was whiter than any snow. None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason 22 of the magnificence and glory and no flesh could behold Him.
The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times 23 ten thousand (stood) before Him, yet He needed no counselor. And the most holy ones who were 24 nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him. And until then I had been prostrate on my face, trembling: and the Lord called me with His own mouth, and said to me: ' Come hither, 25 Enoch, and hear my word.' And one of the holy ones came to me and waked me, and He made me rise up and approach the door: and I bowed my face downwards.
[Chapter 15]
1 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous 2 man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men 3 for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children 4 of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget 6 children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. 8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
1 Enoch chapter 100 -speaking to Methusaleh, from Eden -after he went to live with the holy Watchers, there:
And I, Enoch, answered and said unto him: 'The Lord will do a new thing on the earth, and this I have already seen in a vision, and make known to thee that in the generation of my father Jared some of the angels of heaven transgressed the word of the Lord. And behold they commit sin and transgress the law, and have united themselves with women and commit sin with them, and have married some of them, and have begot children by them. And they shall produce on the earth giants not according to the spirit, but according to the flesh, and there shall be a great punishment on the earth, and the earth shall be cleansed from all impurity. Yea, there shall come a great destruction over the whole earth, and there shall be a deluge and 16 a great destruction for one year.
In another part of 1 Enoch, God declares that the resurrected righteous saints will be equal with the angels in heaven.
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme In another part of 1 Enoch, God declares that the resurrected righteous saints will be equal with the angels in heaven.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
I want you to really think about the above and really think about how it is false.
I could tell you but I want you to really think about it. Please, no knee-jerk reaction. Just really think about it.
You can tell me nothing because you are blinded to the Word of God. Jesus repeated what Enoch first wrote, when He rebuked the Sadducees for "erring,not knowing the Scriptures about the "unmarried"state of the resurrected righteous saints, who are "as/like the angels in heaven", when they attain the kingdom of heaven", by the power of God.
So what does Enoch say the state of the angels in heaven is? -not married/not made for marrying, as Adam flesh on earth was, in Enoch chapters 14 and 15, which I posted earlier.
Enoch says the righteous and regenerated saints are to be companions with/equals to the angels/hosts of heaven and united/one with/ the father [through] the Son.
Of course, the Bible says this later, in multiple places, but Enoch said it first, to all the nations born of his loins.
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[Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the 4 rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you.
Be hopeful, and cast not away your hopes for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do ? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal 6 judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world.
And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, 7 but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven.
Union with [joined to] the Father and the Son -by the redemption the Son brings to the regenerated seed of Adam's race, is first revealed in Enoch -which loss of the same original "union" of the created "Adam, son of God" [Luke 3:38] is what caused Adam to be dead in spirit since that fall; for the Glory of the Unseen Father departed Adam at the fall, and Adam is dead in spirit ever since, and Adam is not a "son of God", as he was created as a human being, to b, and Adam will never be a son of God, for the ruin is irrevocable, which is why we must be born anew, of the Living Spirit of the New Man/Christ in flesh, to be adopted sons of God in His New Man name [Luke 3:38 -"Adam, son of God"; but now only in the adoption can the seed of Adam be called the sons of God; 1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.]
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[Chapter 105]
1 In those days the Lord bade (them) to summon and testify to the children of earth concerning their wisdom: Show (it) unto them; for ye are their guides, and a recompense over the whole earth. 2 For I and My son will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives; and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
I read it's possible that part of Enoch was even written AFTER Jude, and that Jude was quoting from another source or direction inspiration.
Deut. 33:2-4 He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes. Surely it is you who love the people; all the holy ones are in your hand.
Jude 1:14-15 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Enoch 1:9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
Some say Jude was quoting Deut. but it seems quite a stretch. I certainly think that it is more correct to assume that Jude and Enoch are more closely related but that does not prove that Enoch is inspired. If Aristotle was quoted we would not assume Aristotle was inspired.
Certainly it is more appropriate to think of the coming of the Law as more fulfilling of Enoch and Jude. As in the first part of chapter 1 of Jude... it is as in the time of Moses when those who did not believe were destroyed yet time continued on until now... so too the destruction of Jerusalem destroyed the very men Jude is warning about here.
However, not one mention of hell... just destruction. This is not dealing with life after death.. simple death. That is not to say that it implies that that destruction leads to annihilation either. It is simply that after death is not addressed. I think too many people focus erroneously on after death when the focus in the bible is on live life because when you are dead you are dead!
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