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Hi June7th, I just had to chime in here. No one needs a gospel to find our Heavenly Father... it's a soul thing. At the time of our birth, we are all given natural love and it's this love, for better or for worse, that we share with others throughout our lives and it's this love for one another that athiests and agnostics hold dear to their hearts... which is a good thing.
But there are two loves... another higher love that brings with it increased love, joy and happiness, and this we may receive from our Heavenly Father if it is our heartfelt and soulful desire to do so.
I work in prison ministry. If I were just to enter a prison and start preaching the gospel...I would be ignored...it just doesn't work. We first show the women the gospel by our actions....we show them the agape love of Christ by the things we do for them, by our attitudes toward them, by the way we LOVE them...then they in turn want to know more about us and why we would do such things for them. This is when we can share the gospel with words. I have seen many women turn their entire lives around...just because they experienced the LOVE of Christ through us. God first touches us through our hearts and this is how we touch others...words mean nothing to someone who doesn't know LOVE...it is the LOVE that draws them in.
I work in prison ministry. If I were just to enter a prison and start preaching the gospel...I would be ignored...it just doesn't work. We first show the women the gospel by our actions....we show them the agape love of Christ by the things we do for them, by our attitudes toward them, by the way we LOVE them...then they in turn want to know more about us and why we would do such things for them. This is when we can share the gospel with words. I have seen many women turn their entire lives around...just because they experienced the LOVE of Christ through us. God first touches us through our hearts and this is how we touch others...words mean nothing to someone who doesn't know LOVE...it is the LOVE that draws them in.
Have to agree with you...ChristyGirl !!
To many people out there that have never experienced love and want to see its sincerity through those who are genuine !! People know when a hug is real or not !!
There is a balance.... it's like a show and tell thing !!
Yet, usually those that come in contact into the path of your life probably know your a Christian and they are watching closely.......
There are a lot of non-believers out there that have somewhat a idea about Christianity and they want to see if the message they have heard is genuine and match up to the life style of one who claims Him in their life.
edit to add... Like our neigbors, you haven't shared with them the gospel right away, yet they see you every Sunday leaving early, that is the a slight witness of your life that later opens the doors to share.
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 01-29-2010 at 08:01 AM..
I work in prison ministry. If I were just to enter a prison and start preaching the gospel...I would be ignored...it just doesn't work. We first show the women the gospel by our actions....we show them the agape love of Christ by the things we do for them, by our attitudes toward them, by the way we LOVE them...then they in turn want to know more about us and why we would do such things for them. This is when we can share the gospel with words. I have seen many women turn their entire lives around...just because they experienced the LOVE of Christ through us. God first touches us through our hearts and this is how we touch others...words mean nothing to someone who doesn't know LOVE...it is the LOVE that draws them in.
What scriptural basis is there for this? Your personal experience carries no authority as to what we should believe or not believe. For one thing, experiences vary widely: For every experience like the one you refer to above, there is a contradictory experience in which displaying Christian actions and attitudes did nothing to bring about conversion. So, if we rely on our experiences to determine what we believe, then we have no firm basis or standard.
Also, connected with the previous paragraph, I would like to ask you: Does your approach always result in the positive response from inmates that you describe? You speak in very general terms, but it isn't clear whether your positive actions always result in positive results. Has any of those inmates ever ignored you or even responded in a negative way at all?
So, what biblical support is there for your approach, which basically places the gospel at step 2 of the outreach process rather than step 1. This, however, is not what Jesus or the apostles did. Their priority was always teaching the truth. They never waited until the people around them could see their lives in action. That is a worldly concept that has become popular in most of Christianity, but there is no support for it in the Bible. It is actually evidence of how far we have drifted from reliance upon the Word of God for our practices and beliefs.
This is as good a time as any to repeat my question posted earlier. It's an important one:
1.) Is it possible for someone to be saved without hearing/reading/learning the gospel message?
2.) Is it possible for someone to be saved without observing a Christian’s godly life?
What scriptural basis is there for this? Your personal experience carries no authority as to what we should believe or not believe. For one thing, experiences vary widely: For every experience like the one you refer to above, there is a contradictory experience in which displaying Christian actions and attitudes did nothing to bring about conversion. So, if we rely on our experiences to determine what we believe, then we have no firm basis or standard.
Also, connected with the previous paragraph, I would like to ask you: Does your approach always result in the positive response from inmates that you describe? You speak in very general terms, but it isn't clear whether your positive actions always result in positive results. Has any of those inmates ever ignored you or even responded in a negative way at all?
So, what biblical support is there for your approach, which basically places the gospel at step 2 of the outreach process rather than step 1. This, however, is not what Jesus or the apostles did. Their priority was always teaching the truth. They never waited until the people around them could see their lives in action. That is a worldly concept that has become popular in most of Christianity, but there is no support for it in the Bible. It is actually evidence of how far we have drifted from reliance upon the Word of God for our practices and beliefs.
This is as good a time as any to repeat my question posted earlier. It's an important one:
1.) Is it possible for someone to be saved without hearing/reading/learning the gospel message?
2.) Is it possible for someone to be saved without observing a Christian’s godly life?
I fully support the preaching of the gospel. But there are lots of ministries in the body of CHRIST. Let me explain. For example, I've walked up to people before and simply started a normal and common conversation with them, in which no religious subject was spoken. You know, just hello, how are you? I'm fine , etc. Yet in those brief moments I knew they were being convicted by the HOLY SPIRIT. You see, lots of people are so far from the kingdom of GOD, that they are not at a point of being ready to recieve the good news of JESUS CHRIST. But how can this be proven with scripture? Why did GOD send John the Baptist before the Messiah? It was to prepare the hearts of the people so they would be at a stage of sanctification and spiritual attitude that would allow them to recieve the message of JESUS CHRIST.
Here in America, the gospel is not foreign. It's all over the place. Bibles are available in vast numbers. Christians abound in numbers. Ministers are in every town. But many are shunning the gospel. They've heard it preached, and they don't want it. We can not trap them and beat the gospel into them. But GOD can work on those people to prepare them over time, IF HE CHOOSES TO, so that they will be humbled and ready to get saved through the believing of the Salvation message. And in that process GOD can and does use His faithful people in a variety of ministries. It all works together for good when the HOLY SPIRIT is working in our lifes.
I fully support the preaching of the gospel. But there are lots of ministries in the body of CHRIST. Let me explain. For example, I've walked up to people before and simply started a normal and common conversation with them, in which no religious subject was spoken. You know, just hello, how are you? I'm fine , etc. Yet in those brief moments I knew they were being convicted by the HOLY SPIRIT.
ForHimByHim, thank you for your post, but this is actually the very problem I'm talking about. I hate to sound so critical, but I need to ask: How are you so sure that they came under conviction by the Holy Spirit?
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You see, lots of people are so far from the kingdom of GOD, that they are not at a point of being ready to recieve the good news of JESUS CHRIST.
I agree completely. The dire problem is that they will never be ready unless God "brings them forth"--gives them the new birth--through the word.
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But how can this be proven with scripture? Why did GOD send John the Baptist before the Messiah? It was to prepare the hearts of the people so they would be at a stage of sanctification and spiritual attitude that would allow them to recieve the message of JESUS CHRIST.
This is a good point, but I would also make the exception that John the Baptist's ministry did not consist in merely greeting people. His was a ministry of bold, public, verbal proclamation.
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Here in America, the gospel is not foreign. It's all over the place. Bibles are available in vast numbers. Christians abound in numbers. Ministers are in every town. But many are shunning the gospel. They've heard it preached, and they don't want it.
Doesn't this actually support what I'm saying? In spite of all these benefits, people still reject the gospel. What is to blame? More importantly, what does scripture say is to blame?
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We can not trap them and beat the gospel into them. But GOD can work on those people to prepare them over time, IF HE CHOOSES TO, so that they will be humbled and ready to get saved through the believing of the Salvation message.
I agree. It's called regeneration, but it doesn't happen apart from the preached word. The passages I quoted in an earlier post bear this out.
That's irrelevant to this thread. My experience with atheists, or lack thereof, is not the final deciding factor. The Bible is.
Jremy, while I understand (I think) what you are meaning when you say that your "final deciding factor is the Bible" what does not make sense is what you are seeking to rely upon that Bible for. It would make sense to me that if you are relying upon it in order to bring God's word to others (most notably, the "lost" nonbelievers of this world) then some degree of familiarity with atheists might be a tad helpful. Given the fact that your OP started out by quoting SisterKat's words about atheists, I felt that what I wrote was, in fact, quite relevant to this thread.
--Or are you just looking to preach God's word to fellow Christians/believers?
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Originally Posted by Jremy
Actually, I don't need to worry about that because I don't believe that God needs me to market the gospel to atheists. He is quite capable of getting their attention. My job as the believer is to proclaim the gospel to them.
I am sincerely sorry to hear that, as I can tell you with the utmost honesty that the closest I ever, at one time came to considering "God" and Christianity was through another person and/or persons. Those individuals, I am almost certain, did not feel that they were "marketing" the gospel to me.
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Originally Posted by Jremy
June, if spreading God's love is the equivalent to communicating the gospel, then the gospel is no longer a verbal message with specific content but simply a set of actions that we perform toward others.
Actually, I would prefer to believe that in "spreading God's love" (and thereby communicating the gospel) is, in large part, an aspect entailed in conveying/communicating the content of the Bible. Communicating the content of the bible ONLY with words, independent of the actions implied by and within those words, is useless. As well as false.
I can't fathom how it could otherwise...
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Originally Posted by Jremy
The fact is that it is a message that must be communicated and taught by the Church verbally. Actions, no matter how nice or loving, will not tell you a thing about God, sin, Christ, the atonement, faith, repentance, and other crucial matters.
The Church is a community. --A community which, in this case, involves fellow human beings who are believers. Who interact with one another. Whose actions towards one another would (hopefully!) uphold the gospel by supporting others through not just words, but one's actions, as well.
More importantly, if your actions towards me aren't at least somewhat "nice or loving" then you are never really going to get my attention; never get me to want to listen to those words.
Actions are important.
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Originally Posted by Jremy
I'm glad that you value honesty. You won't mind, then, if I am very direct with you in this thread.
If you were anything less than honest with me (and direct) I suspect it would be an insult and disservice to us both.
Actually, I would prefer to believe that in "spreading God's love" (and thereby communicating the gospel) is, in large part, an aspect entailed in conveying/communicating the content of the Bible. Communicating the content of the bible ONLY with words, independent of the actions implied by and within those words, is useless. As well as false.
I can't fathom how it could otherwise...
Hi June. Perhaps you can't fathom it because you might be leaving out a very important element: the work of the Holy Spirit in tandem with the preached word. The overall teaching of the Bible is that the Holy Spirit convicts people of their sin and regenerates them, and all this is done through the medium of the gospel message preached. It is not done through (by means of) the actions of the people who bring that message.
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More importantly, if your actions towards me aren't at least somewhat "nice or loving" then you are never really going to get my attention; never get me to want to listen to those words.
Actions are important.
I agree, and I'm not denying the importance of actions. Our kindness toward others can, and often does, make them more willing to listen to us. What I am questioning, among other things, is whether that kindness can actually open up the human heart to the gospel itself. Do you see what I mean?
It is because so many Christians confuse these two things that they place so much more emphasis on behavior and actions than on the actual communication of the gospel message. To the minds of such Christians, a period of time in which their Christian lives are observed by unbelievers is the necessary first step--before even preaching the gospel. This concept, however, is foreign to the Bible.
Do you think that you have ever drawn anyone to God by your actions? Let me share with you a time when this happened to me and part of where the OP discussion comes from another thread.
I am a caregiver to my Aunt who suffers with low mentality disorder and schizo affect. I often visit her at her home (a type of nursing home), take her out shopping and have her at my home for dinner and family events. Often at her home, I talk to her about God and how God loves her, etc. Its nothing too heavy and it is light as she is not able to comprehend anything too extensive but I still feel it is important to talk to her about God and Jesus.
One day, I received a call from one of the nurses from my Aunt’s nursing home and she asked to meet with me as she was interested in hearing what I had to say about God. This is when I had the opportunity to tell her and verbally share the Word with her. I did not visit my Aunt and say to the nurses on staff
"I would like to call a meeting today to tell you all about the Good News. Please gather all of the other residents, the nurses and the Psychiatrist so that they can hear what I have to say".
No, this would not be allowed. She noticed me in how I love and care for my aunt and how I talk to my Aunt about God. I peeked her interest by the way I conduct myself in caring and loving my Aunt and talking to my Aunt about God.
While Jremy definitely has a strong piece of advice in that we need to share Jesus’ message verbally as much as possible - there are times when we are just going about living our lives and the way you walk with God may enlighten someone - even when you least expect it to.
We may be in the company of hundreds of people in our daily routines through work, school, social events, etc. and sometimes it is not always possible to take all of these people out for a coffee. At least in my life J I am a Mother of 4 and also have a home based business. I do my best to live in Gods light and I am touching souls along the way…..to me that is blessed!
We are called to witness and to share not to hit them over the head with the bible.
Last edited by SisterKat; 01-29-2010 at 09:59 AM..
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