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Are you really so dense that you can't see what you are saying?
Kat,
All I have pointed out to you is sound hermeneutic of Full Preterism. When you want to have a mature debate and dialogue about it, it would help greatly without rude remarks such as the one above.
I don't believe you do understand, and that is why you are always saying that we are taking things out of context.
When the bible says that "God will have all people to be saved" ... I take it at face value, and no twisting it by claiming context will change that for me ...
When the bible says that "God IS the savior of all men" ... I take it at face value and don't twist it and then claim the context demands i do so. That's your department ...
If you could show me one scripture that said "God will not have all people to be saved", or "God is not the savior of all men", then i would agree with you interpretation of the context. But it doesn't and i don't. Keep praying for understanding ... Because as it stands, i believe you could keep studying till the stars fall from the sky and still never come to a knowledge of the plain and obvious truth which is plainly stated throughout the scriptures.
God bless ...
Ironmaw, what I admire about you is you don't insult people, just their view, and it is always a pleasure to debate with you. As long as we attack each other's view, feelings may get turned upside down, but we must contend with each other about the scriptures, so no false doctrine is abound.
About 1 Tim 2:4, I completely understand the failure in applying a consistent hermeneutic in it, because at first glance, it would throw myself off as well. But when peering into the dialogue of Paul, it seems pretty obvious to me he isn't speaking of mere will and exercise of God's, but of the past obstruction of Gentiles freely entering into the covenant, that the Jews held onto so dearly for themselves. The entire purose of Christ's mission was to remove the wall between Jew and Gentile, so that Abraham's coveannt with God, manifested. Let me explain further.
Does 1 Tim 2:4 prove that God will save all people? No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved." The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" (1 Cor. 7:36), or "desire" (Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:16). God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved. But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out? Yes and no.
God wants that people not sin.
Do they sin? Yes.
Is God's will accomplished in this?
No.
Is God in control?
Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out, because man sins.
They will be judged for their sins (if not justified by faith in Christ) and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Will they perish? Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
Consider the case of a righteous judge who must sentence a man to death. The judge is a good man, honest, and full of mercy. Yet, he must enforce the law set before him. Is it his will (desire) to sentence the man to death? No. But, because there are laws, he must enforce them. Likewise with God. He desires that people not perish, but many will because they reject God and His Messiah. They will then face the judgment of the Lawgiver. The Law will be enforced.
So, does 1 Timothy 2:4 prove that God will save all men? No it does not.
Ironmaw, what I admire about you is you don't insult people, just their view, and it is always a pleasure to debate with you. As long as we attack each other's view, feelings may get turned upside down, but we must contend with each other about the scriptures, so no false doctrine is abound.
About 1 Tim 2:4, I completely understand the failure in applying a consistent hermeneutic in it, because at first glance, it would throw myself off as well. But when peering into the dialogue of Paul, it seems pretty obvious to me he isn't speaking of mere will and exercise of God's, but of the past obstruction of Gentiles freely entering into the covenant, that the Jews held onto so dearly for themselves. The entire purose of Christ's mission was to remove the wall between Jew and Gentile, so that Abraham's coveannt with God, manifested. Let me explain further.
Does 1 Tim 2:4 prove that God will save all people? No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved." The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" (1 Cor. 7:36), or "desire" (Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:16). God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved. But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out? Yes and no.
God wants that people not sin.
Do they sin? Yes.
Is God's will accomplished in this?
No.
Is God in control?
Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out, because man sins.
They will be judged for their sins (if not justified by faith in Christ) and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Will they perish? Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
Consider the case of a righteous judge who must sentence a man to death. The judge is a good man, honest, and full of mercy. Yet, he must enforce the law set before him. Is it his will (desire) to sentence the man to death? No. But, because there are laws, he must enforce them. Likewise with God. He desires that people not perish, but many will because they reject God and His Messiah. They will then face the judgment of the Lawgiver. The Law will be enforced.
So, does 1 Timothy 2:4 prove that God will save all men? No it does not.
For the most part i will allow my post, to which your post above is a reply, stand for the purpose of my answer to your reply, but i will add something to it in order to answer some of your claims which you brought up above ...
It seems to me that what you are saying is that God wants something that he cannot have. I do not believe that is true. Where i believe you to be mistaken is in that you think that God is not able or willing, one or the other or both, to save the wicked. You seem to think man has to do something to be saved, when in fact the scriptures say that it is God that renews us so that we are no longer in bondage to sin, and gives us a measure of faith so that we do believe. Without that work of the spirit of God within us to our renewal and without his gift of faith neither you or I would believe now. For those that do not believe, God has not yet worked within them to renew them in the spirit and he has not yet given them faith to believe, but as you admit he(God) does desires to save all, and that is in fact the purpose of his word coming into the world. I believe that his word will accomplish his desire(completely) and will to save all, and eventually those that do not believe and the wicked will be renewed and given faith to believe. It seems to me that you also believe that death ties gods hands and stops him from being able to save people, yet no where in the scriptures do i find evidence of this idea. To the contrary i find evidence that God conquers death and is able to save someone despite the fact that they might die while yet in their sin. I see God has a purpose for them dying in their sin, because he has fashioned them unto dishonor and wrath. I believe it is in Gods acceptable will that men sin and evil exist in order to make his power known and to shew the riches of his glory, but his perfect will that all be saved and be redeemed and liberated from sin will one day come to pass when all is said and done.
Right now Gods acceptable will is in play allowing for sin and evil to exist for his own purposes, yet one day his perfect will for all to be saved and sin and death to be destroyed will be fully manifest and come to complete and ultimate fruition and victory within and throughout the entire creation.
God bless ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-14-2010 at 05:09 PM..
Understandable from your interpretation of the scriptures in the futurist sense, for the most part. In my view, God has defeated death already, in Christ's work, for those in Christ. This is what Paul expanded on with the Corinthian congregation. Victory is given to those "IN" Jesus Christ. For me, because I believe Christ is who He is, I will not die. My natual body will expire, but I will live forever with Him. That is the free gift, that has its prerequisite in belief in Christ.
God desires and wants mankind to not sin.
Mankind sins.
God desires and wants mankind to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Mankind rebels from that.
There is a relationship between mankind and God.
That relationship is submission on man's part to God.
You were drug to Him, as was I. We came to Him after many trials and tribulations in our lives. But we came to Him. Yes, we were renewed by Him, and He drew us to Him. It's called surrender. You and myself surrendered to Him. This is an act of free will, influenced by God, for His glory.
Free will is one of the most interesting concepts to mankind with an all powerful God. Especially in the UR camp, that seems to deny it existence completely, at least from what I have seen here at CD. It is that Free Will that gives Him glory. Otherwise, we are just angels, doing what we are told, and where is the glory in that?
The whole purpose of creation in mankind, was this very purpose.
Glorification and uncircumcised praise on man's part to God.
Submission and surrender of the HEART.
To deny this, is to deny the direct purpose in creation itself.
I chose God. He drew me to Him, but I surrendered and chose to follow Him. That is the glory and praise He was seeking.
The same goes for you and your beliefs.
You didn't just pull them out of thin air.
Certainly, though not every part of my hermeneutic is taken from a book, i have had to do much thinking on these things and still do. Unfortunately many of the works of early Christian Universalists were burned and or heavily edited, such as the works of Origen by Jerome ...
The pertinent issue though is, do the tradition one follows cause ones understanding of the word of God which has come into the world to accomplish the desire of God to be of little or no avail? Seeing that the scriptures speak of Gods will/desire to save all men, if you are believing in a tradition which teaches that more people will be lost due to sin than will be saved due to the grace of God and the work of Christ on the cross, then i believe you are beliving and following a tradition that makes the word of God to little or no effect, such as the tradition of the pharisees which Jesus himself condemned.
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ the Wisdom and Power of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Died for mankind, but not all will accept. Subjective justification 1 Corinthians 1:18
Certainly, though not every part of my hermeneutic is taken from a book, i have had to do much thinking on these things and still do. Unfortunately many of the works of early Christian Universalists were burned and or heavily edited, such as the works of Origen by Jerome .
The pertinent issue though is, do the tradition one follows cause ones understanding of the word of God which has come into the world to accomplish the desire of God to be of little or no avail? Seeing that the scriptures speak of Gods will/desire to save all men, if you are believing in a tradition which teaches that more people will be lost due to sin than will be saved due to the grace of God and the work of Christ on the cross, then i believe you are beliving and following a tradition that makes the word of God to little or no effect, such as the tradition of the pharisees which Jesus himself condemned.
Ironmaw,
I agree with you completely. However, which "will" of the Father are we speaking of here? Desire and Will are two different concepts according to the scripture, but it seems that UR has a difficult time discerning the nature of them both. God desires/intends/His delight is for mankind to be saved, but is it His thelēma, His divine WILL?
No, it is His thelō, as I have pointed out, a completely different concept than His actual DIVINE WILL, in that IT WILL BE accomplished. The whole purpose for the verbiage these apostles use, is for us, the church to rightly discern the scriptures so that we know, in depth, what is actually being said.
Just as this case for 1 Tim 2:4, God desires, intends, and delights in that all mankind, Jew, Gentile, King, Slave, Free, etc, to be saved, where in He promised Abraham that his seed would "bless" many nations. This is what is being said, not His Divine Will and Purpose of Prophecy that every man that has ever lived will be saved. It is understandable that folks miss this, but it takes special care and discerning eye and mind, to search deeper in the ancient language, so that no false doctrine is abound.
I chose God. He drew me to Him, but I surrendered and chose to follow Him. That is the glory and praise He was seeking.
and if God had not given you the faith to surrender and follow you would not have
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