Jesus died for all mankind (crucified, pray, Jesus Christ, worship)
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In your view, God did intend to save all/remove partition but didn't do what he intended... why not?
In UR God did intend to save all/remove partition and he does.
Why doesn't God do what he intends?
Ye it does Kat and He already did this. This action has already been accomplished and fulfilled completely. This isn't my view, it is what the scripture is teaching, accept it or not. The context of the passage is dealing with that subject matter solely....that the partition has been removed. Paul is exhorting them to pray for all men, for kings and for all those in authority. Christianity, in its beginning stages, was made up primarily of slaves and common men. Paul says, "Pray for all men, even kings and rulers, because God will save some of them also." "All men" means men of every station in life and racial origin. It is a removal of racial and social distinctions. It is a removal of the partition between Jew and Gentile. Stick to the context and the Greek syntax. This has nothing to do with God's Divine Will. Like I said, this verse cannot be used to support the paradigm of UR.....and every time I see it being used, I will post the contextual interpretation which is what has been stated by myself, and numerous people several times or more.
Ye it does Kat and He already did this. This action has already been accomplished and fulfilled completely. This isn't my view, it is what the scripture is teaching, accept it or not. The context of the passage is dealing with that subject matter solely....that the partition has been removed. Paul is exhorting them to pray for all men, for kings and for all those in authority. Christianity, in its beginning stages, was made up primarily of slaves and common men. Paul says, "Pray for all men, even kings and rulers, because God will save some of them also." "All men" means men of every station in life and racial origin. It is a removal of racial and social distinctions. It is a removal of the partition between Jew and Gentile. Stick to the context and the Greek syntax. This has nothing to do with God's Divine Will. Like I said, this verse cannot be used to support the paradigm of UR.....and every time I see it being used, I will post the contextual interpretation which is what has been stated by myself, and numerous people several times or more.
sciotamicks, you say above: Paul says, "Pray for all men, even kings and rulers, because God will save some of them also."
Yet the scripture doesn't say any such thing like that. I'm sorry, I believe you are under a serious delusion. You are reinterpreting the words to suit your own view.
Question:
Are we supposed to pray for all men - literally every single individual?
OR Are we only supposed to pray for "all" men - only those whom God will save?
Ye it does Kat and He already did this. This action has already been accomplished and fulfilled completely. This isn't my view, it is what the scripture is teaching, accept it or not. The context of the passage is dealing with that subject matter solely....that the partition has been removed. Paul is exhorting them to pray for all men, for kings and for all those in authority. Christianity, in its beginning stages, was made up primarily of slaves and common men. Paul says, "Pray for all men, even kings and rulers, because God will save some of them also." "All men" means men of every station in life and racial origin. It is a removal of racial and social distinctions. It is a removal of the partition between Jew and Gentile. Stick to the context and the Greek syntax. This has nothing to do with God's Divine Will. Like I said, this verse cannot be used to support the paradigm of UR.....and every time I see it being used, I will post the contextual interpretation which is what has been stated by myself, and numerous people several times or more.
You are backpedaling here...
first you say that God intended to save all men but didn't because not all are saved.. then you go on to say that scripture teaches that there is a divide between some and Christ simply died to take that away and that is what saving all men entails?
This verse is about God desiring to save all men. What is so hard about that? Did he save all men or not?
first you say that God intended to save all men but didn't because not all are saved.. then you go on to say that scripture teaches that there is a divide between some and Christ simply died to take that away and that is what saving all men entails?
This verse is about God desiring to save all men. What is so hard about that? Did he save all men or not?
You noticed that too eh?
"God will save all men! God will not save all men! And by all men, I mean 'some men'. ?? Pray for all men!" (Which "all men"?)
sciotamicks seems to use "all men" and "some men" interchangeably which is incredibly confusing and makes these discussions almost futile.
No backpedaling. You both are just having a hard time understanding a concept that is easily understood by anyone within the church. I will let you two figure it out.
It is because of your understanding of 1 Tim 2 in that "will" is considered Divine Will, which it is clearly not, and that the context of it, has nothing to do with what UR proposes.
No backpedaling. You both are just having a hard time understanding a concept that is easily understood by anyone within the church. I will let you two figure it out.
It is because of your understanding of 1 Tim 2 in that "will" is considered Divine Will, which it is clearly not, and that the context of it, has nothing to do with what UR proposes.
Ok.. for lego:
Will is thelema...desire, pleasure, will. From the prolonged form of ethelo; a determination (properly, the thing), i.e. (actively) choice (specially, purpose, decree; abstractly, volition) or (passively) inclination -- desire, pleasure, will.
Hebrews 10:9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Verses 9 and 10 both have "will" and verse 9 is also God's will.. how is God's will not divine will?
The context of 1 Tim 2? I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
Jesus' part in the plan was to ransom all men..BECAUSE God wants all men to be saved....
The context of 1 Tim 2? I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
Jesus' part in the plan was to ransom all men..BECAUSE God wants all men to be saved....
Figured it out? Not in the least. It shows how uneducated the both of you really are when it comes to analyzing the ancient language. Let me help the novice Universalists out. In the Old Testament the word chiefly rendered "to will" is 'abhah, "to breathe after," "to long for." With the exception of Job 39:9; Isa 1:19; it is accompanied by a negation, and is used of both man and God. Several other words are employed, but only sparsely. "Will" as noun is the translation chiefly of ratson, "good-will," "willfulness" (Gen 49:6), with emphasis on the voluntariness of action (Lev 1:3; 19:5; 22:19,29 etc.); also of nephesh, and a few other words.
In the New Testament "will" is chiefly the translation of thelo and boulomai, the difference between the two being that thelo expresses an active choice or purpose, boulomai, "passive inclination or willingness, or the inward predisposition from which the active choice proceeds" (compare Mark 15:9,12 with 15:15).
In 1 Tim 2:4, it is the active wish that is being implied, not the divine will and counsel of God, but His desires solely. Take Matt 23:37 for example:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted (thelo) to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing (thelo)!”
"Will," noun, is thelema. With the exception of a few passages, it is used of the will of God (over all, Mat 18:14; in all things to be done, Matt 6:10; 26:42 parallel, etc.; ordering all things, Eph 1:11, etc.); human will, however, may oppose itself to the will of God (Luke 23:25; Jhn 1:13; Rom 7:18; here the capacity to will is distinguished from the power to do, etc.). Boulema is properly counsel or purpose. While it is possible to oppose the will of God, His counsel or purpose cannot be frustrated (Atcs 2:23; 4:28; Rom 9:19; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17); it may, however, be resisted for a time (Luke 7:30).
Got that?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 02-15-2010 at 10:19 PM..
jesus died to fullfil the prophesy of the messiah. this pertains only to the jews.
it was paul that decided to invite the greeks, and this was met with much resistance from the disciples. christianity is a jewish sect, albeheit a very unpopular one.
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