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Ooops, sorry - actually I had the same feeling as you are the first one to acknowledge that I posted in this thread at all.
Yet, in my first post I said I would not be debating, so what did I expect?
Anyway - I like to throw stuff out for consideration. And I guess I need to be willing to debate a bit if I'm posting stuff.
The twin brother thing doesn't work because they are two separate individuals, and God is one. An IMAGE
Col. 1:5 (Greek) "Eikon" =an image, figure, likeness (yep - it's the root of our English word ICON).
It's root is: "Eiko" to be like, ie: similar too.
It's thought to be akin to a primary Greek root word: eiâkw which means "To give place to" or "to yield".
Now, Aoratos is "invisible" in this case and really means "Not in view". Jesus claimed that only He or whom He revealed the Father too could see the Father.
Now, back to Col. 1:5. It doesn't say He is the image of the invisible Father, but the invisible God. So a trinitarian would have to say that the "Son" is the visible representation of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit (Who, in the trinitarian view, is the one true invisible multi-person God). .
Why couldn't He be God, but just not God the Father?
Because it seems the scripture plainly says in many many places that the Father IS the one God.
“But to us there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ” (I Cor. 8:6).
Paul's preaching and Epistles give us insight to what He saw about all this:
“And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God” (Acts 9:20).
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:7).
“Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (I Cor. 1:3).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ”( II Cor. 1:2).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:3).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 1:2).
“Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:2). “
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you” (Col. 1:2-3).
“Unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ” (I Thess. 1:1).
“Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (II Thess. 1:1-2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord” (I Tim. 1:2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (II Tim. 1:2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior” (Titus 1:4).
“Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phm. 1:3).
“Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 5:20).
“But my God shall supply all of your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus” (Phil. 4:19).
We are “heirs of God” and “joint heirs with Christ”Rom. 8:17).
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 1:3).
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him” (Eph. 1:17).
“For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 3:14).
Why do I feel as if I'm being ignored? Why couldn't He be God, but just not God the Father?
Well, he could be EXCEPT:
...there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in everyone that knowledge;
The one and only God is the Father. Jesus is not our God. The one and only Lord is Christ. The Father is not our Lord.
This passage CAN ONLY MEAN THIS. All other interpretations fall short. Here are two:
1. Remove the commas, they don't belong there.
2. It isn't exclusive. Jesus is God and the Father is lord.
The first fails because we are not told prior to the definitive statement: (as there are many god the fathers and many lord jesus christs).
The second fails because it does not say: one lord (and God) Jesus Christ or one God (and lord) the Father. This interpretation renders the statement meaningless.
When Jesus walked in Israel, he referred to God his Father as "Lord of heaven and earth" (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21). In his resurrection, God the Father made Jesus Lord of all heaven and earth (Acts 2:36; Matthew 28:18). This is what it means for him to have ascended to the right hand of God. Paul also tells us that even now God the Father is the Head of Christ. The Father is God of Jesus and Lord of Jesus. However, the Lordship of creation has been given over to the Son. Paul also tells us in this same letter again that once the last enemy is defeated, Jesus will hand the Kingdom over to the Father, his Lord, and be subjected to him with all creation (15:23-28).
Paul says, "for us" there is one God and one Lord. There are not two Gods and two Lords. In context, Paul is discussing how we believers shall worship and serve God with respect to idols. We have one God by whom all things were created and this one God is the Father. And we have one Lord who we serve as servants of the Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom the one God created all things. No one can serve two Lords. As Jesus said to his disciples, "As the Father sent me, now I also send you." For us there is one Lord because our God has given the Lordship of all heaven and earth over to his Son and we worship and serve our one God, the Father, by serving his Son the Lord.
Because it seems the scripture plainly says in many many places that the Father IS the one God.
“But to us there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ” (I Cor. 8:6).
Paul's preaching and Epistles give us insight to what He saw about all this:
“And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God” (Acts 9:20).
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:7).
“Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (I Cor. 1:3).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ”( II Cor. 1:2).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:3).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 1:2).
“Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:2). “
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you” (Col. 1:2-3).
“Unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ” (I Thess. 1:1).
“Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (II Thess. 1:1-2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord” (I Tim. 1:2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord” (II Tim. 1:2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior” (Titus 1:4).
“Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phm. 1:3).
“Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 5:20).
“But my God shall supply all of your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus” (Phil. 4:19).
We are “heirs of God” and “joint heirs with Christ”Rom. 8:17).
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 1:3).
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him” (Eph. 1:17).
“For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 3:14).
Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I believe the Jews were obviously wrong about God, eternal torment, and Christ ... I believe you are wrong about Christ concerning his deity as well ...
Though maybe you are right and I am wrong. However, just because you cant understand it, that doesn't necessarily make it untrue. I cant understand How God could exist for eternity, I cant even really understand eternity, but i believe it is true. I cant understand How god can be everywhere at the same time, but i believe its true. I cant understand how God created the universe, but i believe he did.
I cant understand exactly How God can be both the father and the son at the same time, but i believe he is ...
God bless ...
It's not an understanding issue. The trinity is VERY easy to understand. It just isn't biblical.
How does 1 + 1 + 1 = 1? How does that make sense? Just slap some units on there:
1 person + 1 person + 1 person = 1 substance of God
Same thing as:
1 foot + 1 foot + 1 foot = 1 yard
But WHERE in the bible are we told that God is a substance? That God is composed of three persons? WE AREN'T! You have to imagine the trinity into the bible since it never comes out and says that God is three ANYWHERE!
So Thomas was bringing back a moment from before when he didn't understand that Jesus was the image of the Father?
That makes sense because it is not as if Thomas is replying to anything here.. he is shown that Jesus rose as he said he would.. all Jesus did were works of the Father... Like an "AH HA" moment?
I think that is plausible. And I have a hard time finding anything more plausible. I know when I believed that Jesus is God I used to find all of these things pointed to that at first glance. It is when you really get to know story that you can see it as a story with a message.
Right, Thomas was recently told that if he sees Christ, then he sees God, so the fact that he exclaims "My Lord and my God" makes perfect sense.
It's not an understanding issue. The trinity is VERY easy to understand. It just isn't biblical.
How does 1 + 1 + 1 = 1? How does that make sense? Just slap some units on there:
1 person + 1 person + 1 person = 1 substance of God
Same thing as:
1 foot + 1 foot + 1 foot = 1 yard
But WHERE in the bible are we told that God is a substance? That God is composed of three persons? WE AREN'T! You have to imagine the trinity into the bible since it never comes out and says that God is three ANYWHERE!
I am not a common trinitarian ... I actually lean toward Sabellianism or modalism ... I believe that Christ and the holy spirit and the father are not distinct persons, but that they are actually three aspects of one deity. Just like my reflection and my shadow are aspects of myself. Christ is the embodiment and incarnation of the invisible incorporeal and otherwise ineffable deity or the father God. The holy spirit is the spirit of Christ/God. God is one, not three ... When you see God you see Christ. Christ is the express image of the father, he is the eternal God become a man.
In order that we might become one with God, God first had to become the son of man, in order to redeem us and in order to bring about our eventual transcendence and inclusion into the Godhead through his atoning sacrifice.
The twin brother thing doesn't work because they are two separate individuals, and God is one. An IMAGE
Col. 1:5 (Greek) "Eikon" =an image, figure, likeness (yep - it's the root of our English word ICON).
It works for me, because I believe that the Father and the Son are separate individuals. One individual can't be the image of himself.
Quote:
Now, back to Col. 1:5. It doesn't say He is the image of the invisible Father, but the invisible God. So a trinitarian would have to say that the "Son" is the visible representation of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit (Who, in the trinitarian view, is the one true invisible multi-person God). .
I can't speak for trinitarians, since I'm not one, and I don't believe the Father is invisible. He's just invisible to us right now.
Yet Christ never said he and his father were separate ... In fact he said the opposite, that he and the father are one(Jhn 10:30).
Just as they are one with Christ.. as in the same way... (John 17)
How can we be one with God and Christ the same way Christ is one with God if Christ IS God? Then we would have to be God too.. that doesn't make much sense to me.
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Why couldn't He be God, but just not God the Father?
