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Just as they are one with Christ.. as in the same way... (John 17)
How can we be one with God and Christ the same way Christ is one with God if Christ IS God? Then we would have to be God too.. that doesn't make much sense to me.
We are God, in Christ. We are co-heirs to all that is God. Through our espousal to Christ we are made one with God.
John 10:33-34
The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.' Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
Did Christ deny their accusation? Nope! ... He sure didn't. If Christ is not believing himself to be God, he sure could have cleared all this up at this point and time and said something like "i am not God" or " i am not making myself God" or "you misunderstand what i am saying i am not God i am only a man" ...
God will be all and in all ... You and i will be God and in God.
Yet Christ never said he and his father were separate ... In fact he said the opposite, that he and the father are one(Jhn 10:30).
They are "one" but not numerically. I know you believe they are a single unit, a single substance, a single essence, but I don't. Furthermore, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible to imply that they are. On the contrary, there are literally dozens of verses that simply make no sense to me at all when interpreted as a modalist would.
John 10:30 does say that the Father and the Son are "one." It does not say that they are numerically a single unit. And John 7:11 clarifies exactly what Jesus meant when He said they are "one." It states, "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." Do you believe that Jesus was praying that we may all someday be absorbed into the substance you believe to be God, that we will lose our own identities and become part of God? It seems so obvious to me that Jesus was not talking of "one" as a number designating a single unit, but of "one" as describing a unity that is perfect and absolute.
There are numerous instances where the word "one" is found in the scriptures denoting a unity which is not physical:
Exodus 24:3 says, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."
2 Corinthians 13:11 says, "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
Acts 4:32 states, "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."
Anyway, I just can't accept that God sent himself to earth, prayed to himself, asked himself to forgive those who killed Him or said that He was His own Father or His own God.
They are "one" but not numerically. I know you believe they are a single unit, a single substance, a single essence, but I don't. Furthermore, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible to imply that they are. On the contrary, there are literally dozens of verses that simply make no sense to me at all when interpreted as a modalist would.
John 10:30 does say that the Father and the Son are "one." It does not say that they are numerically a single unit. And John 7:11 clarifies exactly what Jesus meant when He said they are "one." It states, "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." Do you believe that Jesus was praying that we may all someday be absorbed into the substance you believe to be God, that we will lose our own identities and become part of God? It seems so obvious to me that Jesus was not talking of "one" as a number designating a single unit, but of "one" as describing a unity that is perfect and absolute.
There are numerous instances where the word "one" is found in the scriptures denoting a unity which is not physical:
Exodus 24:3 says, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."
2 Corinthians 13:11 says, "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
Acts 4:32 states, "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."
Anyway, I just can't accept that God sent himself to earth, prayed to himself, asked himself to forgive those who killed Him or said that He was His own Father or His own God.
God says of himself that his is one God and one savior, and that there is none other beside himself. (Isa 45:21)
And Jesus said ...
Mark 12:29
and Jesus answered him -- `The first of all the commands [is], Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one ...
Only God is able to do what Christ did. No mere man could do it. Christ laid down his own life and took it back up again by his own power.
Christ is the creator, he is the word of God and his is God, he created all things in heaven and in earth. He sustains all things in himself. All things were created by him and for him. He is God ...
I realize some of you may never accept this in this life, and cannot even fathom it. However God is one and will be all in all. All will be God and in God. I am persuaded that everyone will understand this one day.
We are God, in Christ. We are co-heirs to all that is God. Through our espousal to Christ we are made one with God.
John 10:33-34
The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.' Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
Did Christ deny their accusation? Nope! ... He sure didn't. If Christ is not believing himself to be God, he sure could have cleared all this up at this point and time and said something like "i am not God" or " i am not making myself God" or "you misunderstand what i am saying i am not God i am only a man" ...
He does:
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Because it seems the scripture plainly says in many many places that the Father IS the one God.
“But to us there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ†(I Cor. 8:6).
Paul's preaching and Epistles give us insight to what He saw about all this:
“And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God†(Acts 9:20).
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ†(Rom. 1:7).
“Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ†(I Cor. 1:3).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christâ€( II Cor. 1:2).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ†(Gal. 1:3).
“Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ†(Eph. 1:2).
“Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ†(Phil 1:2). “ Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you†(Col. 1:2-3).
“Unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ†(I Thess. 1:1).
“Unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ†(II Thess. 1:1-2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord†(I Tim. 1:2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord†(II Tim. 1:2).
“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior†(Titus 1:4).
“Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ†(Phm. 1:3).
“Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ†(Eph. 5:20).
“But my God shall supply all of your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus†(Phil. 4:19).
We are “heirs of God†and “joint heirs with Christâ€Rom. 8:17).
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ†(Eph. 1:3).
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him†(Eph. 1:17).
“For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ†(Eph. 3:14).
Wow! You went to a lot of work there, Firstborn. I'm not going to respond by commenting on each of the scriptures you posted, but I am going to try to clarify my position. I hope I don't leave you even more confused.
The OP was based on a verse in which the Father, speaking to His Son, calls Him "God." I believe that scripture to imply that the Son may accurately be referred to by the title of "God." Thomas, upon recognizing that he was actually in the presence of his resurrected Savior, said, "My Lord and my God." I believe it is significant that Jesus did not correct him and say, "I'm not God." Finally, you are certainly aware that the John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." If Jesus Christ was the Word, He was God (i.e. He had the title of "God"), but He was also "with God," implying the existance of two divine beings.
That said, I definitely do not believe that the Father and the Son are one and the same. While I believe we can refer to Jesus Christ, the divine Son of a divine Father and the author of our salvation, as "God" (for the reasons mentioned in my prior paragraph), I do not normally do so. When I use the word "God," I am almost always referring to God the Eternal Father. When I use the words "the Lord," I am referring to His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. I am thoroughly subordinationist in my view of the Savior's relationship with His Father. He said himself that the Father was His God and that the Father is greater than He.
This is difficult to understand unless one realises that Jesus was referring to himself, and praying to himself, when he mentioned 'the Father'. He was tested in every way as we are. That means that he had none of the knowledge that he had as the supernal deity, except what he got from the Scripture and the world. Remember that, though he realised that he was God in the flesh, he did not want others to know unless they worked it out from prophecy, his miracles and, pre-eminently, his words. So his words relating to his relationship with himself are a disguise.
36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
That's clearly a correction.
I understand that in his claiming to be the son of deity, he is in fact claiming to be deity. Christ is the "only begotten" son of God. This is in reference to his deity, which no other person in history can claim. Or do you simply believe Christ is merely a demigod?
God says of himself that his is one God and one savior, and that there is none other beside himself. (Isa 45:21)
And Jesus said ...
Mark 12:29
and Jesus answered him -- `The first of all the commands [is], Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one ...
Only God is able to do what Christ did. No mere man could do it. Christ laid down his own life and took it back up again by his own power.
Christ is the creator, he is the word of God and his is God, he created all things in heaven and in earth. He sustains all things in himself. All things were created by him and for him. He is God ...
I realize some of you may never accept this in this life, and cannot even fathom it. However God is one and will be all in all. All will be God and in God. I am persuaded that everyone will understand this one day.
God bless ...
Everything was created THROUGH the word BY God. The word is divine, not God.
I've believed in the trinity for a long time and defended it vehemently. However, I then began taking several things Jesus said about himself at face value and my whole belief changed. This was about the time I began to believe in UR. There was simply too much inserting into the text what I wanted it to say. It was much easy to reconcile a couple of scriptures by going to the greek than to twist the entire book of John and loads of other scriptures.
If you try to come at the word without reading into what it's saying, then the trinity falls apart - modalism or any other flavor.
Everything was given to Christ by God. Do not insert the words 'the father' every time it simply says God where Christ obviously wouldn't be God, and the doctrine becomes a confusing pile of junk. The belief that Jesus is God relies on vague definitions and vague verses with unimportant results.
God DID NOT have to die himself for him to be able to take away the sin of the world. All he needed was a perfect sacrificial lamb.
Everything was created THROUGH the word BY God. The word is divine, not God.
I've believed in the trinity for a long time and defended it vehemently. However, I then began taking several things Jesus said about himself at face value and my whole belief changed. This was about the time I began to believe in UR. There was simply too much inserting into the text what I wanted it to say. It was much easy to reconcile a couple of scriptures by going to the greek than to twist the entire book of John and loads of other scriptures.
If you try to come at the word without reading into what it's saying, then the trinity falls apart - modalism or any other flavor.
Everything was given to Christ by God. Do not insert the words 'the father' every time it simply says God where Christ obviously wouldn't be God, and the doctrine becomes a confusing pile of junk. The belief that Jesus is God relies on vague definitions and vague verses with unimportant results.
God DID NOT have to die himself for him to be able to take away the sin of the world. All he needed was a perfect sacrificial lamb.
So then answer me this ... Do you believe Christ is the "prince of peace"? If so, then why do you not believe that he is the "mighty God", and the "age enduring father"(Isa 9:6)?
I believe he is ...
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Doesn't add up
