Universalism reconciliation and the law of non-contradiction (Calvinist, apostles, Alabama)
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Taken out of context as usual. I was referring to the God described in the OT under the veil of ignorance which you retain as descriptions of God despite the fact that they completely contradict the TRUE NATURE of God revealed by Jesus Christ!!!! Those OT descriptions describe an evil and capricious God depicting every weakness and flaw in humans. That was why Jesus had to come to set the record straight! I do NOT believe YOUR interpretations of the bible and God . . . that's for certain. That is a PERFECT description of the EVIL OT descriptions YOU would make GOOD by attributing them to God!!!
You said what you said. The link has been provided for all to see. Readers may refer back to post #389.
What are you talking about now? Who said anything about one part of a verse applying to us now but not the rest. As I said, salvation has always been through faith in Christ as He was presented in any given dispensation.
The issue is not 'what it is to you.' The issue is what does the Bible say about it. The answer is this.
Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' Belief precedes and is a prerequisite for salvation.
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have eternal life.' Belief precedes and is a prerequisite for salvation.
John 11:25 ' Jesus said to her, ''I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, 26) and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?'' Belief precedes and is a prerequisite for salvation.
You are wrong again....
Deut. 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Romans 2:29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
Belief cannot come unless there is a change of heart.. Thus God does everything... man has no part in his own salvation not even belief.
Deut. 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Romans 2:29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
Belief cannot come unless there is a change of heart.. Thus God does everything... man has no part in his own salvation not even belief.
You continue to ignore scripture and attempt to use scripture to contradict other scripture. Scripture after scripture declares that salvation is contingent upon belief in Christ. Here is how it works.
Romans 10:13''For ''Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'' 14) How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, ''How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things?'' 16) ''However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, ''Lord, who has believed our report?'' 17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
God provides the Gospel-->the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead hearer of the Gospel-->the hearer believes the Gospel-->the Holy Spirit carries to the point of salvation the faith of the one who has believed in Christ as a result of the Gospel.
The work of salvation is performed by God and revealed to man. God places the responsibiltiy on man to believe the Gospel and thereby receive the offer of salvation.
Acts 16:31 ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides (remains) on him.
The issue in salvation is making a decision to believe in Christ for salvation. The work of salvation was done by Christ, it was revealed by the Holy Spirit, it is offered to man, and the responsibility is placed on man to receive it or reject it.
You continue to ignore scripture and attempt to use scripture to contradict other scripture. Scripture after scripture declares that salvation is contingent upon belief in Christ. Here is how it works.
Romans 10:13''For ''Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'' 14) How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, ''How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things?'' 16) ''However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, ''Lord, who has believed our report?'' 17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
God provides the Gospel-->the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the spiritually dead hearer of the Gospel-->the hearer believes the Gospel-->the Holy Spirit carries to the point of salvation the faith of the one who has believed in Christ as a result of the Gospel.
The work of salvation is performed by God and revealed to man. God places the responsibiltiy on man to believe the Gospel and thereby receive the offer of salvation.
Acts 16:31 ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides (remains) on him.
The issue in salvation is making a decision to believe in Christ for salvation. The work of salvation was done by Christ, it was revealed by the Holy Spirit, it is offered to man, and the responsibility is placed on man to receive it or reject it.
This is all plainly set forth in the scriptures.
So you CAN boast that you CAUSED your salvation rather than what scripture says that NO ONE CAN BOAST because GOD does the work first....
Scripture is clear... God causes someone believe and it is not a choice one makes. Therefore God either creates some to destruction or he doesn't..
Mike555 - You sound extremely hostile and hateful today against the other posters. Even for you this level of malice is not normal. Are you OK?
Consider Paul's admonitions against your own words:
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
2Co 12:20 For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there may be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances;
Your hostility is not only offense to those that hear you speak the name of Christ, but it's not healthy for YOU either!
The lady and the other posters have only shown you respect in their discourse with you by exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
You would do well to follow her example. If you can't behave like a Christian at least act like a gentleman.
[quote=katjonjj;13284673]So you CAN boast that you CAUSED your salvation rather than what scripture says that NO ONE CAN BOAST because GOD does the work first....
Ephesians 2:13-14 ''For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of youselves, it (Salvation) is the gift of God 9) not as a result of works that no one should boast.
Quote:
Scripture is clear... God causes someone believe and it is not a choice one makes. Therefore God either creates some to destruction or he doesn't..
Were you created for destruction or life?
God causes no one to believe. He provides the information and leaves it to the individual to decide one way or the other. That is why man was created in the first place. To make the choice for or against God in accordance with the angelic conflict.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 '...God our Savior 4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.''
HOWEVER.
John 8:24 '' I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe (there's the personal responsibility of man to believe) that I am He, you shall die in your sins.
And in John 3:36 we have the distinction between those who believe and those who do not believe.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'
Man makes the choice between receiving God's offer of salvation or rejecting it.
So that it's clear. God desires that all men be saved and yet those who do not obey the command to believe in Christ shall not see life but the wrath of God remains on them.
To make the claim that God makes some believe but does not cause others to believe is to make God responsible for those who do not believe. The Bible says it over and over that you must believe in order to be saved. And it makes it clear that many do not believe. Man makes the choice.
Mike555 - You sound extremely hostile and hateful today against the other posters. Even for you this level of malice is not normal. Are you OK?
Consider Paul's admonitions against your own words:
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
2Co 12:20 For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there may be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances;
Your hostility is not only offense to those that hear you speak the name of Christ, but it's not healthy for YOU either!
The lady and the other posters have only shown you respect in their discourse with you by exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
You would do well to follow her example. If you can't behave like a Christian at least act like a gentleman.
Those such as yourself who oppose the truth do find the truth to be offensive. Of that there is no doubt. You are a universalist and are in opposition to the word of God. Universalists have no fruit of the Spirit to exhibit. They are pawns of Satan. And this truth you find offensive.
These seem to be the posts that the above poster is complaining about. Post # 382, 383, 387, 389, and 393.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-14-2010 at 12:16 AM..
So you CAN boast that you CAUSED your salvation rather than what scripture says that NO ONE CAN BOAST because GOD does the work first....
Ephesians 2:13-14 ''For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of youselves, it (Salvation) is the gift of God 9) not as a result of works that no one should boast.
God causes no one to believe. He provides the information and leaves it to the individual to decide one way or the other. That is why man was created in the first place. To make the choice for or against God in accordance with the angelic conflict.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 '...God our Savior 4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.''
HOWEVER.
John 8:24 '' I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe (there's the personal responsibility of man to believe) that I am He, you shall die in your sins.
And in John 3:36 we have the distinction between those who believe and those who do not believe.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'
Man makes the choice between receiving God's offer of salvation or rejecting it.
So that it's clear. God desires that all men be saved and yet those who do not obey the command to believe in Christ shall not see life but the wrath of God remains on them.
To make the claim that God makes some believe but does not cause others to believe is to make God responsible for those who do not believe. The Bible says it over and over that you must believe in order to be saved. And it makes it clear that many do not believe. Man makes the choice.
I believe God causes all to come to him... remember? So obviously I don't believe God causes some and not others to come to him....
CAN you say that you believed? That it was your choice?
Then you can boast....
Quote:
As you said: Ephesians 2:13-14 ''For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of youselves, it (Salvation) is the gift of God 9) not as a result of works that no one should boast.
Those such as yourself who oppose the truth do find the truth to be offensive. Of that there is no doubt. You are a universalist and are in opposition to the word of God. Universalists have no fruit of the Spirit to exhibit. They are pawns of Satan. And this truth you find offensive.
It's the attitude that's offensive. It's not so much what you believe to be the truth. We can debate that all day long and walk away agreeing to disagree. I'm a guy, so I can take the abuse and hand it back to the guys. It's a guy thing, and I'm up for it...I think...lol
Can you at least be kind to the ladies and treat them with dignity and respect? Your testimony, what little you have left, would go much further if you did.
Those such as yourself who oppose the truth do find the truth to be offensive. Of that there is no doubt. You are a universalist and are in opposition to the word of God. Universalists have no fruit of the Spirit to exhibit. They are pawns of Satan. And this truth you find offensive.
You haven't bothered to answer how those who proudly proclaim Jesus as the Savior of mankind can possibly be pawns of Satan . . . since neither Satan nor any of his minions can nor would do so. Their only crime in your eyes is NOT believing as YOU do in the "precepts and doctrines of men" concerning Christ "written in ink" . . . but instead follow what is "written in our hearts" by God and interpreted by the Holy Spirit within using the "mind of Christ" to understand God.
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