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No Doubt. Question is - do you care if your traditional view is tainted and actually opposing the will of God? That's the question.
The scriptures state plainly that everyone will not be saved.
Matthew 7:13 ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14) ''For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'
These are direct statements from the word of God that put the lie to universalism.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
First, this whole discourse is speaking of Christians (read the parallel in Lu.13:23)
Second, it is speaking of entering into the kingdom of heaven and few enter into the kingdom of heaven by the strait gate, but many enter into the kingdom of heaven via the broad way through destruction.
This is seen here, after all Judgments have all been passed by God we read how those who are without the gate, the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie are welcome in THROUGH THE GATES into the City for the Spirit and the Bride still say come and whosoever will may come and take of the water of LIFE FREELY.
Revelation 22:12-17
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
True we are to have reverential awe of God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
But what does it mean to be destroyed/appolumi in hell?
There is a doctern that the church has been teaching for so long now that mankind excepts it without actually taking it to God and check it out in His word to see if it is true.This doctern is based on fear and is a lie more damaging then the one about the rapture.This doctern is ETERNAL TORMENT (E.T.) it is a lie and has not even entered into the mind of God. The scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1Tim4:10
Did you get that? Jesus Christ is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY of those that believe.
The bible tell us Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Brothers and sisters this corn of wheat was FITTED to destruction. which brings me to the topic at hand.
What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
I see two different conclusions to this verse.1) ALL MEN-UNIVERSAL2) ONE MAN-PERSONAL And I believe the scriptures speak of both and that both are assured to come to pass.
1) ALL MEN
Ro.9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Now why would God make vessels unto dishonour ?
So that He could shew His wrath and make His power known.(the power of thecross)
Why did He make vessels unto honour ?
So He could make known the riches of His glory.
The vessels unto honour everyone I think will agree are those that overcome in this life,and the vessels of dishonour are those that don't.
Okay then lets look how God is going to shew forth the power of the cross to the vessels of dishonour.
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
You can see that these vessels are fitted to distruction,but what does it mean to be fitted to distruction?
Let look at it:
The word fitted comes from the Greek word 2675 katartizo { kat-ar-tid’-zo}
from 2596 and a derivative of 739; TDNT - 1:475,80; v
AV - perfect 2, make perfect 2, mend 2, be perfect 2, fit 1, frame1, prepare 1, restore 1, perfectly joined together 1; 13
GK - 2936 { katartivzw }
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair1a1) to complete1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust1b1) to fit or frame for one’s self, prepare1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon
so you can see they are to be made complete as they ought to be made,and how is that? in the image of God.
Universalism still makes the claim that Jesus is the only way for salvation and yet there are atheists that use the universalist reconciliation argument to refute that Jesus is the only way
and I quote "So the next time a Christian suggests to you that you need Jesus and Christianity in order to be saved, it might be worth bringing up a few passages like those above in response. Find out why they think Universalism is false."
So which is it? Does this idea violate the law of non-contradiction and if it does then how can the universalist still hold on to the claim that Jesus is the ONLY way because He clearly cannot be the ONLY way if one fully understands the doctrine of salvation or do universalist have a different understanding of Christology than orthodox Christianity?
Universal Salvation is the doctrine that Jesus Christ Himself preached. He said nobody can come to the Father except by Him (Christ). All shall be saved via Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Anything other than that IS contradiction.
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist Universalism still makes the claim that Jesus is the only way for salvation and yet there are atheists that use the universalist reconciliation argument to refute that Jesus is the only way
and I quote "So the next time a Christian suggests to you that you need Jesus and Christianity in order to be saved, it might be worth bringing up a few passages like those above in response. Find out why they think Universalism is false."
So which is it? Does this idea violate the law of non-contradiction and if it does then how can the universalist still hold on to the claim that Jesus is the ONLY way because He clearly cannot be the ONLY way if one fully understands the doctrine of salvation or do universalist have a different understanding of Christology than orthodox Christianity?
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Universal Salvation is the doctrine that Jesus Christ Himself preached. He said nobody can come to the Father except by Him (Christ). All shall be saved via Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Anything other than that IS contradiction.
This is the result of the common and natural assumption that "believe in" refers to our overt act of proclaiming belief. It does NOT. That is too easy to do and essentially worthless. God doesn't need it . . . He KNOWS what we believe. The deeper meaning in eis (into) has been explained elsewhere . . . but essentially it means an inner acceptance of the promptings of the Holy Spirit (the LIVING and PRESENT Jesus within) . . . that need have no overt expression associated with it. It directly affects our way of life and attitudes toward all life. (As a cautionary note to those who feel "special" or "elect" . . . that is against the attitude of Jesus and separates you from the proper "state of mind" that reveals to God that you actually "believe into" Jesus).
The scriptures state plainly that everyone will not be saved.
Matthew 7:13 ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14) ''For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'
These are direct statements from the word of God that put the lie to universalism.
Those who have sense will heed what they say.
Dear Mike, those verses do not say that such ones will never be saved.
As to Matthew 10:28 which you quote above, Jesus told His disciples to destroy their souls. I believe that since the soul is the seat of sensation, it is that which we know of scents, feelings etc. that Jesus was telling His disciples that they were to destroy or cut off their enjoyment of life in their life times and if they did they would get their souls or get their enjoyment of life in the kingdom when it comes.
Also as to John 3:36 which you quote, John the Baptist, in speaking to the Jews said "He who believes in the Son has aionios life." He said that before Christ having died. So, what was John the Baptist telling those Jews to believe concerning Christ?
Also, should they believe "in the Son" they have life pertaining to the aion. And the one who does not believe? John says they will not see life [pertaining to the eon].
John the Baptist (not Southern Baptist by the way) never says they shall NEVER be saved. How could he? He said "behold the Lamb of God which is taking away the sin of the world."
Dear Mike, those verses do not say that such ones will never be saved.
As to Matthew 10:28 which you quote above, Jesus told His disciples to destroy their souls. I believe that since the soul is the seat of sensation, it is that which we know of scents, feelings etc. that Jesus was telling His disciples that they were to destroy or cut off their enjoyment of life in their life times and if they did they would get their souls or get their enjoyment of life in the kingdom when it comes.
Also as to John 3:36 which you quote, John the Baptist, in speaking to the Jews said "He who believes in the Son has aionios life." He said that before Christ having died. So, what was John the Baptist telling those Jews to believe concerning Christ?
Also, should they believe "in the Son" they have life pertaining to the aion. And the one who does not believe? John says they will not see life [pertaining to the eon].
John the Baptist (not Southern Baptist by the way) never says they shall NEVER be saved. How could he? He said "behold the Lamb of God which is taking away the sin of the world."
To the contrary.
Matthew 10:28 is not about Jesus telling the disciples to destroy their souls.
It says exactly what it says. Jesus told the disciples not to fear those to whom they would be sent out as sheep in the midst of wolves as per Matthew 10:16. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus told them ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul. but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And John 3:36 means exactly what it says. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
The passage is making a distinction between those who have eternal life and those who will not see life. All who die, who depart from this life without believing in Christ shall not see life. That means they will be eternally separated from God in a place of eternal conscious torment and in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness.
The scriptures state plainly that everyone will not be saved.
Given that you misrepresent the scriptures to say what you want them to say . . . there is nothing plain about it.
Quote:
Matthew 7:13 ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14) ''For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
This talks only about finding it . . . NOT entering it. It means it is easier to find the broad gate but best to wait to find the more difficult narrow one.
Quote:
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear thosewho (that which) kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who (that which) is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.(Gehenna)
I have pointed this out to you before and you choose to ignore it. THERE ARE NO PRONOUNS in this passage . . . yet you have two of them INFERRED by biased human translators . . . and the original word is Gehenna . . . NOT Hell.
Quote:
John 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
(You sort of left out verses 42 through 45 which clearly talk about "works")
46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
Verse 46 has nothing to do with salvation . . . it is "works" and refers to the "refining" that will be necessary for those unrepentant or not under the grace of Jesus.
Quote:
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'
You keep inserting the (believe) after "obey" . . . obey does NOT mean "believe" . . . it means obey the commands to "love God and each other."
Quote:
These are direct statements from the word of God that put the lie to universalism.
Those who have sense will heed what they say.
I will leave it to the readers to determine for themselves what is the lie and what is the truth.
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