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If this life somehow is some glorious place where we have to make the choice betweeen heaven and hell and nothing else really matters, then what better fate can someone have than to die at a point where their salvation is assured? What is selfish and insane about a person willing to sacrifice their own well being to ensure it happens for someone else?
After 33 years of being a Christian, I finally realized this. If in this life we have to make the choice between heaven and hell - NOTHING ELSE REALLY MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All the wonderful things this life gives us is then irrelevant. I live on the lake and I enjoy the water and mountain view every morning. I love to go boating and grilling outside by the lake in the summer . We've remodeled three houses through the years and I love to decorate. I love antiques and "junking." I love my kids and husband and enjoy spending time with them. I enjoy my job. I love cats and have two right now. But, nothing in life matters IF people are dying and going to hell. What would give me the right to enjoy life when my neighbor, or friend, or even a stranger is at high risk for burning for eternity? How could I in good conscience do anything other than warn people?
Truly realizing this and facing the fact is what broke my heart and sent me crying to God asking him WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? He opened my heart and eyes and mind and showed me that there was nothing I could, that I could enjoy life and be at peace knowing He had it under control and he revealed His true merciful character.
I do agree that killing your own baby is insane, but what does that say about God? Is he insane if he kills most of the people He created? It's insane for the mother to sacrifice her own life (prison, death penalty) for her son, but isn't that what Jesus did? He loved us so much that he died for us. Would the mother sacrifice her life for her son just to "give him the opportunity" not to go to hell or would she only do it if she was assured that it would seal the deal. No, I think teaching him and letting him make up his own mind would be giving the opportunity enough without her having to do anything more.
Why would Jesus die just to give us the opportunity to believe? Did the people of the OT have an opportunity to believe in God and be saved? Then, why did Jesus die? ET people tell UR people that if hell isn't literal that there was no reason for Jesus to die. I see if much differently. I say that if his sacrifice didn't save all people and just changed the opportunity to believe on God the Father, to the opportunity to believe on His Son, what was the point of Him dying?
But, getting back to the OP, if this mother realizes that, if in this life we have to make the choice between heaven and hell and NOTHING ELSE REALLY MATTERS, then would it really be that crazy to sacrfice her son's flesh in exchange for his eternal soul?
I would not try to talk sense to an insane person. I would inform the authorities immediately, and they would place her in a mental institution and make sure the baby is safe.
Exactly. One problem though. By your theology the odds are this child will end up being in torment forever.
Strange how it's so easy to see the insanity in a practical everyday situation (with only temporary consequences) and so hard for some to see the absolute insanity of eternal torment doctrine.
Last edited by firstborn888; 03-12-2010 at 11:30 AM..
I would not try to talk sense to an insane person. I would inform the authorities immediately, and they would place her in a mental institution and make sure the baby is safe.
So you would have no words of comfort or any scriptures that would point her to the Lord, to help her realize that sacrificing her son's flesh for his eternal soul would be a really bad idea?
I would not try to talk sense to an insane person. I would inform the authorities immediately, and they would place her in a mental institution and make sure the baby is safe.
Ahhh.... a mental institution.
Which is exactly where SOME good, loving people end up from not being able to reconcile the God of LOVE with the diabolical plan of eternal torture.
INSANITY.
It IS insanity.
This idea that God loves us yet will ETERNALLY TORTURE some or most of the very beings He brought into existence is insanity.
It's not good news at all.
It is the ABSOLUTE false gospel.
It is the OPPOSITE of "good" news.
It is the worst, most heinous, horrible news possible.
Scenarios like the one Bright Hope explained, illustrate the complete madness of eternal torture and what it REALLY MEANS when applied to humanity and ACTUAL LIVES.
Given the OP's "hypothetical" situation, I would say the mother is mentally ill and needs to seek help immediately. Thoughts of murdering your child are sick and you need help. If you can't understand that then can you understand that by murdering your child that you are stealing his god-given right to exercise free will in his life? That free will is not yours to take away and neither is his life. Besides, even if he doesn't choose tour religion doesn't make him lost. There are many true paths through life.
Don't have time to go back through a bunch of posts to find something, but in arguments about Christian Universalism comments are often made saying that the belief makes Jesus sacrifice pointless.
If you are going to make such statements, you need back them up with some proof.
That's ok if you don't have time at the moment, but when you have time, would you mind looking them up. Thanks.
Look at the fruit.
The eternal torture doctrine causes so much bad fruit.
This is just yet another one of them.
Mothers killing their babies out of fear of them not making it to heaven.
Perfect love casts out ALL fear.
GOD is perfect LOVE.
Do you really think that our beautiful, magnificent God would have us LOVE others, LOVE our children and yet have us also think that these that we love just MIGHT be TORTURED FOREVER??? That is the epitome of FEAR. To think that the child you love could slip into a torture chamber? Not just a torture chamber, but one that NEVER ENDS. The GREAT love mixed with the GREAT FEAR is SURELY a recipe for madness. On the other hand, if you just stop loving your child... you should feel better. OR if you just put what you consider to be truth in the back of your mind, you should feel better. Which is what most people do. They think that God would never do that to THEIR children. So they can muddle through.
Oh but don't forget the two commands.
Gotta love your neighbor.
Love is never in vain.
Love CONQUERS all.
Trust God.
We are all in the palm of His hands.
Come on guys...
You know that.
IN your heart...way deep down...
After 33 years of being a Christian, I finally realized this. If in this life we have to make the choice between heaven and hell - NOTHING ELSE REALLY MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All the wonderful things this life gives us is then irrelevant. I live on the lake and I enjoy the water and mountain view every morning. I love to go boating and grilling outside by the lake in the summer . We've remodeled three houses through the years and I love to decorate. I love antiques and "junking." I love my kids and husband and enjoy spending time with them. I enjoy my job. I love cats and have two right now. But, nothing in life matters IF people are dying and going to hell. What would give me the right to enjoy life when my neighbor, or friend, or even a stranger is at high risk for burning for eternity? How could I in good conscience do anything other than warn people?
I am glad you found a more convenient religion after 33 years of misery. The problem is that your unbelieving neighbor, and co-worker will burn for eternity whether you want to believe it or not.
Quote:
Truly realizing this and facing the fact is what broke my heart and sent me crying to God asking him WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? He opened my heart and eyes and mind and showed me that there was nothing I could, that I could enjoy life and be at peace knowing He had it under control and he revealed His true merciful character.
So, you prayed, and God told you to convert to universliam and do nothing.
To the rest of us he says "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 03-12-2010 at 11:44 AM..
Please don't miss the point of the post. I'm pretty sure everyone who reads this will agree she's insane for considering killing her child, even though her thought process does line up with traditional teachings.
The discussion I was trying to get started is about what you would say to this mother and what scriptures you would share to help her find peace in her heart, and to be assured that there is no logical reason to sacrifice her son's flesh for his eternal soul. Also, if she prayed about it, what would God reveal to her heart to give her peace?
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That is the epitome of FEAR. To think that the child you love could slip into a torture chamber? Not just a torture chamber, but one that NEVER ENDS. The GREAT love mixed with the GREAT FEAR is SURELY a recipe for madness. On the other hand, if you just stop loving your child... you should feel better. OR if you just put what you consider to be truth in the back of your mind, you should feel better. Which is what most people do. They think that God would never do that to THEIR children. So they can muddle through.
