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Because the witnesses actually believe that Jesus is indeed the Son of God as the Bible states, you believe they are not christian? They agree with the Bible while you agree with a man made trinity doctrine which by the way, can be googled and proven to be man made. God's word tells us that Jesus was his first creation and that he is his Son. Jesus said that the Father is greater than him. People can twist scriptures but the truth is still there for the honest hearted to seek as if searching for treasure.
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus is God's first creation? I can say that I am greater than my son simply because positionally I am his father. Jesus never said that God was "BETTER" than him. He said that God was greater than Him in as in position or title. The best way for me to explain this concept further is to say that the President or Queen over a country would be great in terms of his or her position among the people he or she is over, but this person in this high position isn't better than the people he or she represents. The same concept applies to Jesus and His relationship to His Father. The father is positionally higher than the Son, and yet they are still one God--co equal, co eternal, and co self existent ones.
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus is God's first creation? I can say that I am greater than my son simply because positionally I am his father. Jesus never said that God was "BETTER" than him. He said that God was greater than Him in as in position or title. The best way for me to explain this concept further is to say that the President or Queen over a country would be great in terms of his or her position among the people he or she is over, but this person in this high position isn't better than the people he or she represents. The same concept applies to Jesus and His relationship to His Father. The father is positionally higher than the Son, and yet they are still one God--co equal, co eternal, and co self existent ones.
Colossians 1:15 states that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
Jesus was tempted by Satan, only angels and humans can be tempted by Satan. God cannot be tempted by Satan. James 1:13 states "with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."
Colossians 1:15 states that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
Jesus was tempted by Satan, only angels and humans can be tempted by Satan. God cannot be tempted by Satan. James 1:13 states "with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."
I guess you didn't read the whole chapter of Colossians chapter 1. If you read further Jesus is also called firstborn among the dead Colossians 1:18. Now do you think that firstborn among the dead means the same as firstborn of creation?
My reasoning is behind whether or not the Greek word prototokos used for firstborn in Colossian 1:15 means that Jesus is the firstborn of creation or it means that He has preeminence over creation since ALL things or (all creation) were created through, for, and by Him. Just from reading the context of Colossians Chapter 1, Paul makes it clear that God appointed or placed Jesus over creation.
At a certain point in history, Jesus “became flesh.” He possessed a truly human nature, and thus was a creature. I wouldn't disagree with Jesus being part of creation. So the fact that Jesus can be shown to be a member of creation tells us nothing whatsoever about His pre-existence before he “became flesh," and it doesn't prove that he was created by God before all of creation, or sheds any light on his ultimate identity or nature.
The burden of proof is now on you, being a Jehovah's Witness to use your bible study aids or have your elders/Watchtower Headquarters research department to show where the bible teaches that Jesus was created or to ask more directly, where in the bible does it explicitly state that God created Jesus first and then created all things through him?
My reasoning behind Jesus not being first creature created by God is that the term “prototokos” doesn't require the “first in time—first in series”or mean first person born in a group or family. Is that true in all cases? No it is not and Scripture proves this.
If we look at Jeremiah 31:9, we see an example which really shows how the most prominent to God was actually called "my firstborn" (Ephraim). Although Manassah was actually the firstborn child(Genesis 41:50-52), God chose Ephraim and thus says "as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn" (Jer. 31:9).
It must be noted that God's choice of Ephraim over Manassah actually went clearly back to the literal sons of Joseph, and this is when the choice was actually made, and made over the initial protest of Joseph even. After giving Ephraim the precedence Jacob predicts that the younger will be greater than the older and so we read: "thus he kept putting Ephraim before Manassah" (Genesis 48:20). Not only did he gain the prominence over Manassah but again to God, he was the "firstborn" not Manassah.
At Colossians 1:15, Paul rules out any thought of Jesus being the "first created". He gives as the grounds for the application of this title that Christ was hands on responsible for all creation in the first place and hands on responsible for it's reconciliation in the last place. Paul makes it plain that Jesus,"he is before all things", and that is the same thing John tells us in John 1:3, right after identifying Jesus as "theos". John says everything came into existence through "theos" and that there were no exceptions not to even one thing. This means that even the first thing that ever came into existence did so through Jesus.
I am sure you will have another argument, and I will keep offering Scripture to defend my interpretation as well.
I guess you didn't read the whole chapter of Colossians chapter 1. If you read further Jesus is also called firstborn among the dead Colossians 1:18. Now do you think that firstborn among the dead means the same as firstborn of creation?
My reasoning is behind whether or not the Greek word prototokos used for firstborn in Colossian 1:15 means that Jesus is the firstborn of creation or it means that He has preeminence over creation since ALL things or (all creation) were created through, for, and by Him. Just from reading the context of Colossians Chapter 1, Paul makes it clear that God appointed or placed Jesus over creation.
At a certain point in history, Jesus “became flesh.” He possessed a truly human nature, and thus was a creature. I wouldn't disagree with Jesus being part of creation. So the fact that Jesus can be shown to be a member of creation tells us nothing whatsoever about His pre-existence before he “became flesh," and it doesn't prove that he was created by God before all of creation, or sheds any light on his ultimate identity or nature.
The burden of proof is now on you, being a Jehovah's Witness to use your bible study aids or have your elders/Watchtower Headquarters research department to show where the bible teaches that Jesus was created or to ask more directly, where in the bible does it explicitly state that God created Jesus first and then created all things through him?
My reasoning behind Jesus not being first creature created by God is that the term “prototokos” doesn't require the “first in time—first in series”or mean first person born in a group or family. Is that true in all cases? No it is not and Scripture proves this.
If we look at Jeremiah 31:9, we see an example which really shows how the most prominent to God was actually called "my firstborn" (Ephraim). Although Manassah was actually the firstborn child(Genesis 41:50-52), God chose Ephraim and thus says "as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn" (Jer. 31:9).
It must be noted that God's choice of Ephraim over Manassah actually went clearly back to the literal sons of Joseph, and this is when the choice was actually made, and made over the initial protest of Joseph even. After giving Ephraim the precedence Jacob predicts that the younger will be greater than the older and so we read: "thus he kept putting Ephraim before Manassah" (Genesis 48:20). Not only did he gain the prominence over Manassah but again to God, he was the "firstborn" not Manassah.
At Colossians 1:15, Paul rules out any thought of Jesus being the "first created". He gives as the grounds for the application of this title that Christ was hands on responsible for all creation in the first place and hands on responsible for it's reconciliation in the last place. Paul makes it plain that Jesus,"he is before all things", and that is the same thing John tells us in John 1:3, right after identifying Jesus as "theos". John says everything came into existence through "theos" and that there were no exceptions not to even one thing. This means that even the first thing that ever came into existence did so through Jesus.
I am sure you will have another argument, and I will keep offering Scripture to defend my interpretation as well.
Proverbs 8:22-31
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:22-31 are verses that Jehovah's Witnesses use to argue that Jehovah created Jesus since Jesus is wisdom personified. If Jehovah had to “produce” or “create” wisdom, does this mean that there was a point in time that Jehovah had no wisdom—that is—until He created it? To me that doesn’t make any sense!
Depending on whose translation you read for Proverbs 8:22, my Bible, unlike the New World Translation, translates Proverbs 8:22 as The LORD possessed me, rather than your Bible which states that He “produced” wisdom? Which fits the context better? My Bible goes on to translate verse 23 as From everlasting I was established. Can you see how wisdom is just as eternal as Jehovah Himself is? And if Jesus is wisdom personified, as the Watchtower argues, wouldn’t we have to argue that He is as eternal as wisdom is and therefore could not possibly be created?
Avasa I’ve looked at all of the verses the Society uses to try to prove that Jesus is created, and none of them stand up under examination. I’d like to share with you a passage that I believe proves that Jesus could not possibly be created. It’s Isaiah 44:24.
This is what Jehovah has said,… ‘I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?’
If Jehovah created Jesus and Jesus created everything else as the Watchtower teaches, how can Jehovah say that He created “everything” by Himself and that no one was “with Him”?
I commend you on your effort to intelligently defend your position without sounding condescending or arrogant towards me. I can tell that you love Jehovah just as much as all of us church going members do too. I have had many experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses who come knocking on my door, and when I share my testimony and beliefs with them, then they go on the defensive and tell me how my beliefs are of the devil and I follow the teachings of men.
Here's is my last point, and I hope you read and pray on this verse very carefully. John 1:3 says of Christ: All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. Jesus cannot be part of the creation made by Jehovah, for no one was with Him when Jehovah-Jesus created the universe all alone.
Proverbs 8:22-31 are verses that Jehovah's Witnesses use to argue that Jehovah created Jesus since Jesus is wisdom personified. If Jehovah had to “produce” or “create” wisdom, does this mean that there was a point in time that Jehovah had no wisdom—that is—until He created it? To me that doesn’t make any sense!
Depending on whose translation you read for Proverbs 8:22, my Bible, unlike the New World Translation, translates Proverbs 8:22 as The LORD possessed me, rather than your Bible which states that He “produced” wisdom? Which fits the context better? My Bible goes on to translate verse 23 as From everlasting I was established. Can you see how wisdom is just as eternal as Jehovah Himself is? And if Jesus is wisdom personified, as the Watchtower argues, wouldn’t we have to argue that He is as eternal as wisdom is and therefore could not possibly be created?
Avasa I’ve looked at all of the verses the Society uses to try to prove that Jesus is created, and none of them stand up under examination. I’d like to share with you a passage that I believe proves that Jesus could not possibly be created. It’s Isaiah 44:24.
This is what Jehovah has said,… ‘I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?’
If Jehovah created Jesus and Jesus created everything else as the Watchtower teaches, how can Jehovah say that He created “everything” by Himself and that no one was “with Him”?
I commend you on your effort to intelligently defend your position without sounding condescending or arrogant towards me. I can tell that you love Jehovah just as much as all of us church going members do too. I have had many experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses who come knocking on my door, and when I share my testimony and beliefs with them, then they go on the defensive and tell me how my beliefs are of the devil and I follow the teachings of men.
Here's is my last point, and I hope you read and pray on this verse very carefully. John 1:3 says of Christ: All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. Jesus cannot be part of the creation made by Jehovah, for no one was with Him when Jehovah-Jesus created the universe all alone.
Concerning Isaiah 44:24, in Genesis 1:1 the heavens and earth were created but in verse 2 it says the earth was formless and waste. Hebrews 1:10 says that God at the beginning, laid the foundations of the earth itself and the heavens are the works of his hands. No mention of Jesus at that time but Colossians 1:15 does state that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that he is the firstborn of all creation. As 16 goes on to say "because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. That is why God could say "“I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?" The heavens and earth had been created as Colossians 1:16 states, they were already in existence. No argument there but as Colossians 1:16 says, all other things were created by means of Jesus.
I have no reason to be "condescending or arrogant" toward you but I don't like the trinity teaching because it denies Jesus as being God's Son. God says Jesus is his Son and Jesus says he is God's Son, to say they are actually not Father and Son but rather one in the same is saying both are lying. We know that God cannot tell a lie. Jesus though could have because though he is the image of God, he isn't God and that's why he was tempted by Satan. Jesus is a creation of God with freewill and is why he displayed obedience to God. Romans 5:19 says "For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [person] many will be constituted righteous." If Jesus were actually God, why would the issue of obedience even be an issue?
Also, Revelation 3:14 says "“And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God," It is Jesus that verse is calling the Amen, faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God. John 17:5 says " So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." The world is speaking not of the earth itself because God laid the foundation of the earth by himself but the creation of the world and it's inhabitants were created by means of Jesus. The Bible clearly tells us that Jesus is God's first created being, he is the image of God and is why Genesis 1:26 says "And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,".
Concerning Isaiah 44:24, in Genesis 1:1 the heavens and earth were created but in verse 2 it says the earth was formless and waste. Hebrews 1:10 says that God at the beginning, laid the foundations of the earth itself and the heavens are the works of his hands. No mention of Jesus at that time but Colossians 1:15 does state that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that he is the firstborn of all creation. As 16 goes on to say "because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. That is why God could say "“I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?" The heavens and earth had been created as Colossians 1:16 states, they were already in existence. No argument there but as Colossians 1:16 says, all other things were created by means of Jesus.
I have no reason to be "condescending or arrogant" toward you but I don't like the trinity teaching because it denies Jesus as being God's Son. God says Jesus is his Son and Jesus says he is God's Son, to say they are actually not Father and Son but rather one in the same is saying both are lying. We know that God cannot tell a lie. Jesus though could have because though he is the image of God, he isn't God and that's why he was tempted by Satan. Jesus is a creation of God with freewill and is why he displayed obedience to God. Romans 5:19 says "For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [person] many will be constituted righteous." If Jesus were actually God, why would the issue of obedience even be an issue?
Also, Revelation 3:14 says "“And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God," It is Jesus that verse is calling the Amen, faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God. John 17:5 says " So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." The world is speaking not of the earth itself because God laid the foundation of the earth by himself but the creation of the world and it's inhabitants were created by means of Jesus. The Bible clearly tells us that Jesus is God's first created being, he is the image of God and is why Genesis 1:26 says "And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,".
You really know your Bible, but these people will never concede that Jeaus was the first born, that would blow their trinty doctrine out of the water.
Concerning Isaiah 44:24, in Genesis 1:1 the heavens and earth were created but in verse 2 it says the earth was formless and waste. Hebrews 1:10 says that God at the beginning, laid the foundations of the earth itself and the heavens are the works of his hands. No mention of Jesus at that time but Colossians 1:15 does state that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that he is the firstborn of all creation. As 16 goes on to say "because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. That is why God could say "“I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?" The heavens and earth had been created as Colossians 1:16 states, they were already in existence. No argument there but as Colossians 1:16 says, all other things were created by means of Jesus.
Would you agree that Scripture reveals that Christ was appointed heir of all things?
Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Psalms 2:7-8 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
As we see here Psalms 2:7-8 is actually cited in the Hebrews context, but what do we read at Psalms 2:7-8? We can't read it any clearer, “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.”
So how much difference is there between being “placed”... and being “appointed”?
This idea can be expanded by reading Ps. 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Ps. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
After referencing Ps. 89:27 with Ps. 2:7, a person cannot miss the easy connection with Col. 1:15-17 where Paul likewise includes the same "...the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities."
Jesus deserves the designation “firstborn” because as Paul said, “He is before all things.” This harmonizes with John 1:3, and this is even more clear when understood against the background of the Colossian heresy that Paul was clearly addressing to them. The Colossians were teaching that there were many mediators. Paul had to refute that false teaching by addressing to the Colossians that only Jesus could be the true Mediator. Thus, only Jesus could identify with both being truly human and truly God because Jesus knows what it's like to actually be both.
John 5:23 states that All men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.
Somehow the Jehovah's Witness either overlook this bible verse or think that it doesn't apply to Jesus. But it's clear that this verse is saying that all men should honor the Son. If then the Son is to be honored, Even As the Father is honored, then the Son must be God, as receiving that worship which belongs to God alone. To worship any creature is idolatry, and yet we are told to honor Him like we honor Jehovah; therefore, Christ is not a creature; and, if not a creature, then what is He (God the Son).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avasa
To say they are actually not Father and Son but rather one in the same is saying both are lying.
Jesus and Jehovah are not one in the same. I don't understand why everytime a JW argues against the trinity doctrine, you all seem to think that trinitarians are saying the Jesus and Jehovah are the same person. No they are not. Jesus is the son, Jehovah is the father, yet there is only one God--MANIFESTED INTO THREE PERSONS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avasa
If Jesus were actually God, why would the issue of obedience even be an issue?
What about reading these verses aloud and see why Jesus was obedient to His father.
Philippians 2: 5-11:
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Here, these verses can't be any clearer why Jesus was obedient to His Father. The first word we need to consider is form in verse 6. It is the Greek morphe, for which English has no exact equivalent. When I learned that their is no English equivalent to morphe, I was blown away, and that helped me understand how Jesus is even more God the son, instead of some created angel as the Watchtower has been teaching.
Unlike "form" in English, morphe does not mean "shape." It is a philosophical term that means "the outward expression of an inner essence." One commentary I read said that we can derive an illustration of this definition from figure skating. One might say, "I went to the Winter Olympics, and the figure skater's form was outstanding." What is meant is that skater's swift, rhythmic grace, and coordinated movements were an outward expression of his inward ability to skate expertly.
Jesus was in the form (morphe) of God. The word being indicates a condition that began in the past and continues into the present. Therefore, while on earth, the outward expression of His inmost being was the expression of the divine essence, deity. Paul means that when the One who became Jesus, the Word, came to earth to assume the form of a man, He did not cease being God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avasa
Also, Revelation 3:14 says "“And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God," It is Jesus that verse is calling the Amen, faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.
Here, the Greek word for beginning is arche. This is where we get the word Architect from, designer, master planner, or originator. Even the scholarly support for this definition of arche is overwhelming, Thayer defines arche as used in Revelation 3:14 as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause." Arndt and Gingrich say that in Revelation 3:14 the meaning of arche is "the first cause." A.T. Robertson says that in Revelation 3:14 the meaning is "not the first of creatures, as the Arians held. . ., but the originating source of creation through whom God works." Once again the Witnesses have no basis to conclude that Jesus had a beginning and thus is not eternal.
You really know your Bible, but these people will never concede that Jeaus was the first born, that would blow their trinty doctrine out of the water.
Jesus is the first born, but not first created.
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