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People don't move to cities, they move to homes in neighborhoods. The city provides the amenities. The home and neighborhood is the shelter and the place where a person actually resides.
People in places like Toronto rationalize living in 525 square feet with a great view of a cooling tower on the building next door and a 45 minute commute to work by claiming ownership of millionaires they do not know, sports franchises they do not own, and museums and events that they mostly do not attend.
But, unlike Fresno and Tulsa and Norfolk, Cincinnati has all of those things and a COL Index in the 90 range.
If you move here, you do not have to live in a neighborhood with crime, drugs, and bad race relations as you seem to believe, any more than a Toronto millionaire would have to live in the aboriginal ghettos.
I can't agree with the notion that people don't move to a place because it has things to offer beyond just a home in a hood.. I can speak for myself, partner and friends only of course, but I like living in large, vibrant places with thriving arts and cultural scenes of size, vast array of sporting events (who cares who owns the Leafs, Blue Jays, Toronto FC, Argo's etc - if you wanna watch a game you can watch it and enjoy it lol) incredibly diverse festivals/parades, extraordinary multiculturalism, restaurants that run the spectrum over most of the world and the practically unlimited urban eye candy that Old Toronto Nabes offer.. It means I don't have to live in my home 90 percent of my free time and can actually go out and enjoy these urban pursuits. These are the type of people attracted to a place like Old Toronto and why it is a growing International city with that type of appeal.. There are plenty of young people, seniors and even middle aged sinks and dinks for that matter who would prefer a condo lifestyle where they are close to the action in a thriving core and they are willing to pay for it - even if the living space is less than an oversized house that isn't required to have a good life! Having said all that, Old Toronto is FAR more than Condo's lol... If you are at all familiar with Toronto like you say than you would have to give credit where due to its impressive Victorian and Edwardian residential stock that constitutes one of the largest in N.A.
I don't live in a condo btw - I live in a highrise 2 bedroom apartment with my partner that is 1000 sq ft.. It is more than enough for us in terms of living space.. I can walk 5 minutes to a subway that will take me downtown into a bustling urban core with an incredible array of things to do and be there in 20 minutes on the tube.
If you are referring to suburbanites and their lifestyle - well ok there are those who have the expensive homes in the Greater Toronto area who don't have an urban lifestyle and for these people I would agree with you - they are no different than joe bloe surburanite in anywhere Canamerica - big homes, malls, power centres and car is king... Having said that, if they want to transition to urbanite and an impressive one at that - Toronto is a great option and as much as Cincy pound for pound is appealing and actually impressive for its size - again I think you would be greatly outnumbered making a claim that Cincy is more urban and culturally impressive than Toronto, a city far larger and more cosmopolitan/International and Sophisticated. These elements will attract people to it not just on a regional level... The world isn't just a playground for the desires of a surbananite who wants a big house with a white picket fence, big yard, agreeable spouse and a whole bunch of kids either lol.. Welcome to 2014 it is a big world and cities are now in competition with other cities around the world to attract a whole range of different types of people!
As for Cincy and crime, drugs and race issues - I for one didn't say it was oppressive in the city or even that the majority of it is like that - In my experience it was not but I only visited and don't know the ins and outs.. In relation to Toronto however, yes I would say that Toronto has less of a crime, drug and race problem.. Is that incorrect?
Let's straighten out a few things here, because whether Toronto is a good Huge city or not is not the question.
First, it is certain to me that the OP will be far happier in Cincinnati than Toronto on an income which would have her suggesting $900 per month for housing. If she was one of Toronto's many multimillionaires that you pointed out she would probably be happier in Toronto than in Cincinnati. It is good to be a big fish in a bigger pond. Anywhere a multimillionaire makes home will be comfortable, convenient and interesting. Good for them. But, Toronto is a city where a person earning the average household income cannot even afford a detached house of their own. Put aside if they would want one, that is not the question. It shows that the average person in Toronto is nearly broke in a city where the COL Index is quite high. And, that is reflected by the data. Half the folks in Toronto make less than $68,000 per year. I would not want to have to live on $68,000 per year anywhere, but certainly not Toronto. A person who allocates $900 per month for housing is probably starting from a take home pay of around $4000 per month.
I think the OP will miss the Asian influence of Toronto and that is one place where Cincinnati is way behind Toronto. And, Toronto is to be recognized for a low crime rate. I am glad you and your partner have found a rewarding lifestyle in Toronto. I am sure you are not doing it on an income where $900 per month is your self set allowance for housing.
By the way, Cincinnati is a highly egalitarian society. If you and your partner come to Cincinnati, you will be able to dine in the finest restaurants (yes, we have them) without "knowing someone", attend the best performances without your father having been a long time season ticket subscriber, and if you stay long enough even join the best clubs, all without being a multimillionaire. Very satisfying.
Let's straighten out a few things here, because whether Toronto is a good Huge city or not is not the question.
First, it is certain to me that the OP will be far happier in Cincinnati than Toronto on an income which would have her suggesting $900 per month for housing. If she was one of Toronto's many multimillionaires that you pointed out she would probably be happier in Toronto than in Cincinnati. It is good to be a big fish in a bigger pond. Anywhere a multimillionaire makes home will be comfortable, convenient and interesting. Good for them. But, Toronto is a city where a person earning the average household income cannot even afford a detached house of their own. Put aside if they would want one, that is not the question. It shows that the average person in Toronto is nearly broke in a city where the COL Index is quite high. And, that is reflected by the data. Half the folks in Toronto make less than $68,000 per year. I would not want to have to live on $68,000 per year anywhere, but certainly not Toronto. A person who allocates $900 per month for housing is probably starting from a take home pay of around $4000 per month.
I think the OP will miss the Asian influence of Toronto and that is one place where Cincinnati is way behind Toronto. And, Toronto is to be recognized for a low crime rate. I am glad you and your partner have found a rewarding lifestyle in Toronto. I am sure you are not doing it on an income where $900 per month is your self set allowance for housing.
By the way, Cincinnati is a highly egalitarian society. If you and your partner come to Cincinnati, you will be able to dine in the finest restaurants (yes, we have them) without "knowing someone", attend the best performances without your father having been a long time season ticket subscriber, and if you stay long enough even join the best clubs, all without being a multimillionaire. Very satisfying.
Well you think you are straightening a few things out - i'm not sure if you really are lol.. You may be happier in Cincy because you like to live in a detached home in a medium sized city.. That is good for you but alot of people WOULD NOT be happy in a medium regional type city with medium regional sized amenities. As for whether the OP will prefer Cincy would depend on whether they are more cut from your cloth or mine - so essentially neither of us is right or wrong. It is a FACT that the OP could indeed find a 1 Bdrm Apt in Downtown T.O for slightly more than her budget 950 per month see link below - she said she wanted to rent so here it is Mr Toronto is the most expensive place in the universe lol where only mulimillionaires can be happy (rolls eyes)...
As for income - You haven't provided the median family income in Cincinnati have you so why not examine that.. What is the median family income in Cincy? Is it higher than in Toronto - no its not, not even close so you keep throwing median family incomes about Toronto yet lets examine what it is in Cincy..
I've already made it clear that housing ie a detached house is way more expensive in Toronto but you are wrongfully assuming that EVERYONE wants to live in a detached home.. That is a very ruralized American way of looking at things. There are plenty of global cities where most people DO NOT live in a detached home or even a semi-detached.. Have you ever been to Barcelona?
Toronto is home to the tenth most number of highrises in the world (see below) - we are clearly a verticle city..so you need to get it out of your head that everyone needs to live in a million dollar home in Toronto to have a good lifestyle making hundreds of thousands per year - you don't.. My partner and I pay 1200 bucks a month for our 2 bdrm apartment - which for a large city is a reasonable price - particularly compared to NYC, Boston, LA and plus we live in Toronto - we don't have to live in a medium sized 'egalitarian' regional city. We can live in the place with the amenities and appeals to it that I've metioned in posts before.. We can easily carry the cost of our apartment and we could do so with 68K but admittedly we make more.. Having said that, most people in our building probably make a median family income and they live just fine too!
Why exactly would my partner and I and the millions of urbanites both within Canada and from the world be more happy in Cincy than Toronto irregardless of cheaper housing in Cincinatti - explicame! Not everyone is like you!
I find it hilarious that you have measured your city on the number of multimillionaires and high rise buildings it has and alcohol fueled street events. I guess this is why folks like you and your partner can stand to live in a crowded city, packed onto commuter trains and buses and queuing up for everything. The pride of large buildings and rich people.
Come and visit us some day. Get an ice cream cone in the village square, watch the kids and dogs in the green and maybe you can slow down a bit.
Your city-mate, Jim, felt as though it was obvious that one would prefer Toronto to Cincinnati. I see you agree. We will do our best to welcome the OP and try to steer her to good, safe housing within her budget. She may miss out on the drunken street festivals, but she will not have to spend 65.5 minutes (the average Toronto Commute) getting to Childrens Hospital.
Childrens Hospital ranks third among all US Pediatric medical centers in the US. I assume that also means third on the continent. So the OP should be just fine here.
Last edited by Wilson513; 11-30-2014 at 05:21 PM..
On the main topic of where to live, Clifton makes the most sense to me. I lived 2 blocks off Ludlow Avenue on Loraine Ave for 2 years. Had a 2 bedroom apartment for $800, great landlord. I only moved because I wanted a dog. Living there you could just by a bike and ride it to Children's. Plus you'd have the 17 and 19 to go downtown.
Also, comparing Toronto to Cincinnati is silly to me. Toronto is a world city with a metro population of 5.5 million people where Cincinnati is checking in at 2.1 million.
Also, Cincinnati did just win 100% score from Human Rights Campaign when it comes to gay rights.
Also, comparing Toronto to Cincinnati is silly to me. Toronto is a world city with a metro population of 5.5 million people where Cincinnati is checking in at 2.1 million.
It only came up because Jim, from Toronto said that the OP would find Cincinnati a less desirable place to live. I was not so sure about that.
I find it hilarious that you have measured your city on the number of multimillionaires and high rise buildings it has and alcohol fueled street events. I guess this is why folks like you and your partner can stand to live in a crowded city, packed onto commuter trains and buses and queuing up for everything. The pride of large buildings and rich people.
Come and visit us some day. Get an ice cream cone in the village square, watch the kids and dogs in the green and maybe you can slow down a bit.
Your city-mate, Jim, felt as though it was obvious that one would prefer Toronto to Cincinnati. I see you agree. We will do our best to welcome the OP and try to steer her to good, safe housing within her budget. She may miss out on the drunken street festivals, but she will not have to spend 65.5 minutes (the average Toronto Commute) getting to Childrens Hospital.
Childrens Hospital ranks third among all US Pediatric medical centers in the US. I assume that also means third on the continent. So the OP should be just fine here.
Mr Wiiiilson - I didn't measure the city based on millionaires or highrises (I mentioned that in response to you going on a rampage bent on painting this picture that T.O is this impossibly unnafordable place to live) - there are all kinds of people with various incomes and there are housing options for all of them... Yes there are expensive houses but there are really wealthy people here, there's also lots of buildings that offer more affordable digs for us avg folk...
Many of the festivals in the city aren't alcohol fueled street events - some yes but its to be expected lol - lord have mercy where do you draw your conclusions from man!! Why would you be taking such a myopic view?.. You'd also see i've actually been pretty darned complimentary of Cincy - a heckuva lot more than you have been of T.O!!!.. The only negative experience in your fair city was I got a speeding ticket driving through the main highway by the Hamilton County Sherrif - a very polite man btw (I paid it even though I could have just ignored it - i'm an honourable guy lol and mailed my cheque in to the county clerk 130 bucks - CAD they didn't mention it had to be USD haha
I agree with Jim (who by the way responded to your characterizing T.O as not having affordable housing so he correctly balanced your post that that is not the case and we both have proven that).. Anyway, yes truth be told - Toronto would offer more to those that want to live in a big city and experience big city amenities.. So yes - Toronto is more my fit than Cincy and most probably more of a 'global magnet' city than Cincy would be as NYC would be more so than T.O - quite handily. Having said all that, I can see why some would prefer a smaller city.. If that is you that's great and you're right - Cincy offers great amenities for its size (i've said that a few times here) in a manageable package that will appeal to some more than T.O.. So again - how this isn't complimentary of the place in your eyes I have no clue.
You say a 65 minute commute for Toronto yet I provided a link to Apartments smack DT in the core about a 15 minute WALK from all the major hospitals including sick kids - the average commute time in T.O is loooong because people choose that - but they have alternate choices Wilson!! Sure though, T.O isn't a small or medium city - average commute times are going to be long - its a big city but not just that - what people don't realize is it is very dense as well - it has the second highest weighted average population density in Canamerica after NYC... Only Chicago, S.F and L.A come close to having average population densities of T.O - it is what it is!
The dig about a U.S hospital just naturally being the 3rd 'best' on the continent just because it is the 3rd best in your country - well that says it all... Even though i'm a big city boy I certainly seem to be eatin a bit more humble pie than someone who professes that they are from a place that isn't egotistical - hmmm ok Wilson!
I've been to Cincy and highly enjoyed the city and intend on visiting again - so I promise to come down and visit your fine city again and more thoroughly - i wanna go to that famous fish and chippy place in the core - forgot the name of it.. Having said that, try and keep a more open mind about T.O and if you do visit let us know in the T.O section and we'll be happy to make recommendations tailored to your interests.. We're not a bunch of snobs like some other cities cough L.A...
Also, comparing Toronto to Cincinnati is silly to me. Toronto is a world city with a metro population of 5.5 million people where Cincinnati is checking in at 2.1 million.
Also, Cincinnati did just win 100% score from Human Rights Campaign when it comes to gay rights.
Actually the metro population of T.O that you cite is a bit muted by U.S metro measurements. If we applied your CSA style population metric (which is always quoted as your metro counts even though they expand to enormous regional type areas) the CSA of T.O would be in the range between 8 -9 million..
This is much more comparable to your CSA than our Canadian style metro counts which are more urban in nature. If you're interested in bullet proofing my claim - just scroll down to the demographics section of my link.
Actually the metro population of T.O that you cite is a bit muted by U.S metro measurements. If we applied your CSA style population metric (which is always quoted as your metro counts even though they expand to enormous regional type areas) the CSA of T.O would be in the range between 8 -9 million..
This is much more comparable to your CSA than our Canadian style metro counts which are more urban in nature. If you're interested in bullet proofing my claim - just scroll down to the demographics section of my link.
Second part in red - good for Cincy!! I'm not surprised - lots of great and friendly people I encountered!! I'll be back
Good to know, I actually felt like 5.5 was pretty small when thinking about Toronto. But it just makes my point even more. I find it hard comparing a large world city to a regional city.
Good to know, I actually felt like 5.5 was pretty small when thinking about Toronto. But it just makes my point even more. I find it hard comparing a large world city to a regional city.
I think Cincy's CSA is 2.2 million - so really Toronto's CSA equiv would be 4X - NYC's CSA is 3X that of Toronto's and obviously it just has that much 'more' in terms of being a large world city. It really all comes down to preference.. I don't mind Big city living so i'd be just fine in the biggest like NYC, London Tokyo...etc Having said that, I might just get sick of it and say - Cincy would be a great fit - you change depending on where you're at in life..
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