Streetcar skeptic to believer (Cincinnati, Mason: relocating, vehicles, natural gas)

[Wilson513]

At 6:00 in the morning you could ride a bike down I71. No one cares about any traffic pattern other than rush hour. Why don't you just chill out before you get into trouble.

[jmecklenborg]

I took a walk around the Findlay Market area tonight...the scale of redevelopment is incredible. After 50 years of steady decline, the area is coming back from a nuclear winter. There are major projects underway on pretty much every block of Race and Elm north of Liberty. Those are the two streetcar streets.

Meanwhile, absolutely nothing is going on north of Liberty on Vine, Walnut, or Main, or McMicken between Vine and Main.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

At 6:00 in the morning you could ride a bike down I71. No one cares about any traffic pattern other than rush hour.

!!!!!!!!

More baloney. Obviously, people don't all work the same hours, and they don't all commute within the same hour.

Check the 71x schedule again. The buses run for only 1 hour and 45 minutes both in the morning and the evening, apparently when there is sufficient demand for the service.

You can't be so ignorant as to believe anything else, so you apparently are engaging in deceitful and sophomoric mental gymnastics in an unsuccessful attempt to explain away your grossly erroneous statement about the number of 71x buses.

The issue isn't about traffic patterns nor was it ever about rush hours. It's about usage of mass transit services, which you obviously will go to great lengths to belittle and misrepresent in your effort to discredit the value of these services. You have demonstrated no ability to discuss the facts, nor possess any apparent willingness to do so.

Once again, pathetic.

[jjakucyk]

I put this together a number of years ago, so the data is getting rather old, but the relative numbers don't seem to have changed much.

Disposition of State Motor-Fuel Tax Receipts - 2008
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinform...s/2008/mf3.cfm

In 2008 the States had just under $38 billion in State gas taxes to distribute.

49% ($18.8 billion) of State gas taxes go to pay for State administered highways
29% ($11.1 billion) pay for local roads and streets
12% ($4.5 billion) pays for mass transit
9% ($3.6 billion) goes to State non-highway uses, the State's general fund, and other things

Funding For Highways and Disposition of Highway-User Revenues, All Units of Government, 2008
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinform.../2008/hf10.cfm

Disposition of Highway-User Revenue (State and Federal gas taxes, I think also vehicle registration):
67.06% ($122.1 billion) in receipts available for distribution as percent of total disbursement for highways [$36.6 billion Federal, $80.1 billion State, $5.4 billion Local]
-4.56% (-$8.3 billion) for non-highway purposes
-8.38% (-$15.2 billion) for mass transit
-2.35% (-$4.2 billion) for collection expenses
-0.06% (-$103 million) for territories

51.72% ($94.1 billion) net total remaining

So this means that the total receipts for user fees, most of which are State and Federal gas taxes, only cover 67% of of the amount spent on highways. Other uses for those funds decrease the amount available to road projects to just under 52%. That means the remaining 48% must be subsidized from other sources as shown below.

Revenues Used for Highways
51.72% ($94.1 billion) from user fees (gas taxes and tolls)
4.57% ($8.3 billion) from local property taxes
22.19% ($40.4 billion) from general fund appropriations [$10.6 billion Federal, $6.8 billion State, $23 billion Local]
6.84% ($12.4 billion) from other taxes and fees
9.60% ($17.5 billion) from investment income and other receipts
10.95% ($19.9 billion) from bond issue proceeds
-5.86% (-$10.7 billion) to intergovernmental payments

100% ($182 billion) net total

Note that the above statistics are only for State and Federally operated roads and highways, which are Interstate and US highways and numbered State routes. A few select local streets are included in some states. This mainly includes non-interstate highways through municipalities. The remainder of the local street network is entirely funded out of local sources, mostly property taxes and municipal income taxes. User fees do not fund most streets at all, whereas gas taxes that go to highways are collected for all gas used even on local streets, for lawn mowers, generators, ATV’s, etc.

[Wilson513]

Cincinnati is an easy market to study. The folks have voted with their wallets. Everyone that commutes prefers a private car. Who wouldn't?

A few hundred die hard souls get on the lovely, air conditioned, non stop service down the I71 corridor on the QCM 71X demonstrating that even a great alternative like the 71X can't attract enough takers to make a traffic jam in a school lunch line.

Simple answer - we don't want it. Get outta here with the Urban Planners' dream of people packed like sardines into an innercity and transporting via a800's technology.

[jjakucyk]

Wilson, try to get this through to your brain: People can only vote for the options on the ballot. They choose the best options they're presented with, but that doesn't mean it's what they want. If all grocery stores and restaurants sold only steak, that doesn't mean it's what everyone wants, but they have to buy it to survive. 60+ years of suburban-only, driving-only policies and outright propaganda (the American dream and all that) have led to a development pattern that requires driving, whether you want to or not. That's not a choice, and it doesn't mean everyone wants to get around that way. Besides, holding up the 71X as some sort of competition to I-71 is a joke because of its limited schedule (and thus flexibility), plus the fact that it's subjected to the same traffic jams on I-71 as everyone else. Shoulder running is only allowed north of Kenwood, and then only at 30mph or less.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Everyone that commutes prefers a private car. Who wouldn't?

This has been discussed in several recent threads. Persons who can lower their total transportation costs by using mass transit may realize sufficient savings, perhaps by eliminating the need for one additional vehicle, and may prefer to use mass transit. Those who want to use the commuting time for other purposes, such as studying professional materials or keeping up with social media, may free up significant free time.

And, of course, many persons who use mass transit aren't commuters, and either can't afford a personal vehicle, or, such as the elderly, have issues driving.

Originally Posted by Wilson513

A few hundred die hard souls get on the lovely, air conditioned, non stop service down the I71 corridor on the QCM 71X demonstrating that even a great alternative like the 71X can't attract enough takers to make a traffic jam in a school lunch line.

You've proven repeatedly in recent posts that you know little about the 71x route, let alone the daily ridership. Yet you persist in these deceitful allegations. And, of course, SORTA offers other commuting routes.

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Simple answer - we don't want it. Get outta here with the Urban Planners' dream of people packed like sardines into an innercity and transporting via a800's technology.

Translation, you don't want mass transit services, yet if the "we" were a majority of Cincinnati voters, there would be no mass transit in Cincinnati.

SORTA is unique among major Ohio transit agencies in that it doesn't have a dedicated sales tax to finance operations. So this perhaps does suggest voter and political support for mass transit in Cincinnati is poor compared to even Columbus, let alone Cleveland. Mass transit investments made over decades, even a century, can't be cheaply or easily made over a short period of time if the need ever arises, such as if energy prices increase in the future. Unfortunately, due to budget pressures, federal and state mass transit aid available in decades past, may not be readily available in the future, making the prospect of any catch-up in Cincinnati area mass transit services a daunting prospect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southw...nsit_Authority

It sounds as if Cincinnati voters actually will once again decide whether they want to levy a sales tax to support mass transit services.

Transit authority announces board approves ballot measure for 2017 - WCPO Cincinnati, OH

Transit authority considering tax levy options to cover Metro budget shortfall - WCPO Cincinnati, OH

It sounds as if the Cincinnati Connector has soured voter support in Hamilton County for expanded mass transit services. If the street car line is viewed as inefficient boondoggle, it maybe has soured the electorate in providing more financing for mass transit services.

Top county Dem: Bus tax 'wrong solution' to $1 billion need

So Cincinnati may remain a metro with inferior mass transit, a prospect relished by individuals such as yourself.

Of course, a need for better mass transit service, e.g. by aging baby boomers and financially challenged Millennials seeking an auto-less life style, may leave Cincinnati in a transportation pit at some point in the future.

The Transit Authority of Northern Kentucky apparently has some form of permanent tax financing, but I wasn't able to find the nature of the tax. TANK's public financial disclosures are horrid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transi...ky#cite_note-3

Apparently, Hamilton County politicians want a similar to TANK multi-county mass transit agency with some form of public financing.

The Columbus area COTA has a five-county quarter cent sales tax that was renewed by voters in 2016 by a 3-1 margin.

Voters opt to renew COTA's quarter-cent sales tax - News - The Columbus Dispatch - Columbus, OH

Are Cincinnati area voters truly so different from voters elsewhere in Ohio?

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by jjakucyk

Wilson, try to get this through to your brain: People can only vote for the options on the ballot. They choose the best options they're presented with, but that doesn't mean it's what they want. If all grocery stores and restaurants sold only steak, that doesn't mean it's what everyone wants, but they have to buy it to survive. 60+ years of suburban-only, driving-only policies and outright propaganda (the American dream and all that) have led to a development pattern that requires driving, whether you want to or not. That's not a choice, and it doesn't mean everyone wants to get around that way. Besides, holding up the 71X as some sort of competition to I-71 is a joke because of its limited schedule (and thus flexibility), plus the fact that it's subjected to the same traffic jams on I-71 as everyone else. Shoulder running is only allowed north of Kenwood, and then only at 30mph or less.

You have succinctly stated why people do not want trains, subways or buses.

Flexibility.

Try working a 9-5 downtown and pick up your kid and get some take out on a train.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

You have succinctly stated why people do not want trains, subways or buses.

Flexibility.

Try working a 9-5 downtown and pick up your kid and get some take out on a train.

Of course, these often are not issues in areas with more robust mass transit. Cincinnati area residents may have no perception of this reality.

And, believe it or not, many commuters return home using mass transit and then use a personal vehicle to pick up children or run an errand. Mass transit services may allow these individuals to afford day care services, making working a financial possibility.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

You have succinctly stated why people do not want trains, subways or buses.

When we had a vote for a subway system in Cincinnati back in 1916, it passed by a 6-1 margin. There has not been a vote to construct a subway system or an expressway network since. Yet we have 200+ miles of expressway. There has never been a vote. It appeared out of thin air.

For whatever reason you cannot entertain the idea that the car and oil companies devised the way things are now and got the legislation passed at the federal and state levels that makes hidden automobile and road subsidation appear "normal". In the United States, money-losing public roads are "investments" whereas public transportation requires "subsidies".

Again, Chrysler has been bailed out twice, GM once, cash for clunkers, DRILL BABY DRILL, etc.