Is Cincinnati the South? (Columbus, Toledo: house, landscaping, neighborhoods)

[GodBlesstheUSA]

I know Cincinnati can't be considered the "deep South" but is it the "South?"

I think Cincinnati is kind of in that "gray area" where it's equidistant to Columbus (proper North and proper Midwest) and Louisville (proper South)? And just across the river is the Northern most border of the Mason-Dixon line.

I also know that once you step outside of downtown Cincinatti and get out in the rolling hills and farm land it get's awfully conservative quickly and pretty laid back.

What does everyone think?

[progmac]

Cincinnati is not the south. You could maybe call it strongly Appalachian. Right across the river - covington, ft mitchell, etc, i'll call "maybe south" get down past 275 and you are in the south in my opinion.

[t45209]

Not even close.

How do you define "the South?" Look, there are just as many "hillbillies" running around the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire as there are around here. Do you consider those states the South? I've traveled fairly extensively in central and northern Michigan...I've run into a lot of "laid back" conservative types up there...aka the Michigan Militia sort of folks...does that make Michigan "the South?" You can't draw conclusions along the criteria that you are using.

Nah, no way is Cincinnati Southern. I have had many Southern friends come up here and be totally culture shocked. And believe it or not, one of the most shocking things to them is Cincinnati's Catholic culture. Churches that gamble and drink at festivals send Southern people into speaking in tongues. It's hilarious!

[goyguy]

New Englanders say I have a Southern accent from having grown up in Cincy - funny!!! No way is that true. Yes, there's a twang, but no, 'tain't Suth'n. What's amazing is, even in this era of transient populations and language homogenization the locals' drawl changes the instant you cross the river. Kentuckians from Covington to Owensboro to Pikeville definitely have Suth'n in their speech. The way I talk was influenced not only by my South Carolinian parents, but also from my growing up around not only long-time 'nati natives but also lots of Appalachian and AA families recently arrived from warmer climates. "Where is it?" "Whurzit at?" "Where it is?" I heard all three "from childhood's hour."
Geographically, Cincy's not Southern - and btw the Mason-Dixon line is the Pennsylvania/Maryland boundary only. But, if you want to get technical, its latitude is due north of Cincy so therefore...
Folks might think of southwestern Ohio as being Southern based on its vibe, but that same vibe is in effect throughout the Midwest and most non-urbanized areas of the whole country. You can say "hi" to a passing stranger on the sidewalk without their shrinking back and reaching for a concealed weapon, wave a motorist from a side street into your lane without getting honked horns and raised fingers, share smiles and small talk with store clerks, and so on.
The expression "up South" has often been used by Black folks to describe the environment for them in Cincinnati. What it essentially means is that much of the same social realities of the Old Confederacy are in effect north of the Ohio (or in NYC, St Louis, or wherever the case may be.) It's the "same sh-t, different day" idea: maybe there are no Jim Crow waiting rooms or drinking fountains, but most neighborhoods are race-segregated and all of the "better" schools are mostly or entirely White-populated. A college degree and/or relevant experience still means job offers confined to janitorial or landscaping work or at best a gig at the post office for men, nursing or house cleaning for women. Social interactions with the paler complexioned are conducted with cordial facades. Significant life events are usually not shared at the time, but are exclaimed over after the fact with vows to get together more often. PLEASE NOTE - before anybody gets all "heated" - this mentality was 100% valid until the '70s, and lot has changed since then. The "rising Black middle class" is not a myth. Legal segregation is a thing of the past nationwide. But no one would argue that any schools with a small or absent Caucasian student body are on par with those that are predominantly Caucasian, that any part of town which is mostly White is considered "a bad area" by virtue of that, etc etc. Spurred by diversifying workplaces, there's a great deal more casual interaction between all kinds of people today than was true 20 or more years ago. What a lot of red-state Tea Party types and others think is that with all the equal-opportunity laws on the books, AA's need to "stop whining and get with the program." But laws don't change attitudes, at least all that quickly. America's evolving into a race-blind society but no way are we there yet. Cincy isn't "up South" anywhere to the extent that it was not too long in the past; by the same token, the aftereffects have yet to wear off.
SO...having written all that...I concur that Cincinnati is not "the South." Well, not exactly. Linguistically? No. Geographically? Debatable. Socially? Yes and no. ("Up South?" Yes, but less so all the time.) I think the "gray area" analogy sums it up, with "gray" of course not meaning the Confederate Army uniform.

[Sarah Perry]

I read something in a historical context (perhaps turn of the last century?) once and can no longer dredge up who wrote it, but Cincinnati was characterized as the southernmost Northern city and the westernmost Eastern city. I think that still speaks volumes, at least to the extent there are still regional differences around the country.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

I read something in a historical context (perhaps turn of the last century?) once and can no longer dredge up who wrote it, but Cincinnati was characterized as the southernmost Northern city and the westernmost Eastern city. I think that still speaks volumes, at least to the extent there are still regional differences around the country.

I can agree with those characterizations, as long as the limits are defined.

Cincinnati is definitely not South, never has and never will be. It is definitely close to the South, I know Lexington is, not too sure about Louisville.

Cincinnati is also definitely not East, especially if East means East Coast. Where is the line of demarcation? I believe somewhere around Buffalo, By extending down through Pittsburgh. Pa and then jutting on an angle thorugh W. Va, Tn, and into Georgia toward Atlanta. Atlanta is definitely South, but I do not consider it East.

So what is Cincinnati? Simply the first great cultural center developed west of the Appalachians. Many things have happened over the course of the years, but this remains a fact. Many things of course change, but those in this forum recognize the architectural elements and other factors which made Cincinnati great. I will go so far as to propose this - Cincinnati is the most European, in terms of archiecture, topography, etc. of any US city. Of course, with the large number of Germans who settled here, how could it be anything other than European.

All I know is I am proud to be from Cincinnati, and that will not change.

[GodBlesstheUSA]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

I will go so far as to propose this - Cincinnati is the most European, in terms of archiecture, topography, etc. of any US city. Of course, with the large number of Germans who settled here, how could it be anything other than European.

Yea, you're going far. I think that award goes to Boston.

[tntnb]

Originally Posted by goyguy

New Englanders say I have a Southern accent from having grown up in Cincy - funny!!!

I'm a native Cincinnatian, but I lived in Toledo for a couple of years. The people up there commented often on my "southern drawl." Heh.

[Cincy-Rise]

If Cincinnati were the South, what would that make Mississippi, Alabama or Georgia ... South America?

Often my family in TN and MS call us Yankees. There's even a "bitterness" in them that is hard to explain that stems from generation after generation from Confederate lineage.

If we're speaking in terms on actual geographical location ... New York City sits roughly south of Lima, OH and closer to Cincinnati.

Wikipedia says this from the weather section:

"Climate
New York City has a humid subtropical climate (Köppen Cfa), and using the 0 °C threshold, it is the northernmost major city on the continent with such categorisation. The area averages 234 days with at least some sunshine annually, for an average of 2540 hours of bright sunshine per year .[54]
Winters are cold and wet, and prevailing wind patterns that blow offshore minimize the moderating effects of the Atlantic Ocean. Yet, the Atlantic and the partial shielding of the Appalachians keep the city warmer in the winter than inland North American cities located at similar or lesser latitudes such as Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis."

- Also, Ohio and Cincinnati weren't always part of the Midwest(which really shouldn't be recognized as a single region anyway - too broad of a term to summarize such a large land area) ... Before the Midwest, we were part of the "Northwest Territory":




You bring up Mason Dixon Line, but the line which was created from a boundary dispute by Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon - stops at Pennsylvania.



- Fort Washington was "acting" headquarters for the Northwest Territory which would represent the surrounding states and upper Midwest.

- Cincinnati played a major role for the Union military during the Civil War, along with Northern Kentucky. Many of your Northern Kentucky cities named: "Fort ________ " ... were named after Union Generals.

- Kentucky, along with Missouri was split between both Union and Confederate Territories and remained a Commonwealth State.


- If the Memphis-Huntsville Region is known as the "Midsouth," what does that make Louisville?


In conclusion, ask any Mississippian if Cincinnati is in the South and let us know what their response is!

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by GodBlesstheUSA

Yea, you're going far. I think that award goes to Boston.

Maybe I should have qualified it as the Most European City West of the Alleghenies.

But why Boston? Just because it is old, decrepit, and generally a mess doesn't qualify it for distinction. San Francisco on the other end of the continent has just as much to be admired as Boston.