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Even in Chicago, you see a certain trend. New graduates live in the city near all the bars and nightlife. Then they get married. After the first child, they move out of the city to get to decent schools, a nice yard, and a lower crime rate.
In my younger days, I was willing to put up with three crack houses in the neighborhood, dealing with corrupt politicians to resolve issues, having my house broken into, having someone blow out by windows with gunfire and the like. It was certainly a lot more exciting than the quiet house in the suburbs.
All bets are off once the first kid comes along. It tends to snap most decent people out of their little worlds of night and social life, and as mentioned, "work to live" mentality.
To be near the action as a twenty-something has it's place. I lived in Clifton in my 20's...tripped over the bottles left by the bums around my apartment, barraged by panhandlers, rodents, and roaches from the Chinese place next door, no parking, etc. Didn't matter, I was close to everything and my circle andIwas 'invincible' anyways.
Fast forward ten years, got married, had a baby and moved to the burbs, with the perfect lawn and the white picket fence...
I grew up in the suburbs of Greenhills and Mount Healthy, it doesn't get any less interesting but those were great places to raise a family. I've lived in a continuous mix of suburban, urban, and rural and they all have their advantages.
RestorationConsultant has interesting post on his blog about the cycle of gentrification that is expected to occur in Over The Rhine. It starts off well but the net result predicts unintended consequences that don't sound very appealing and will eventually turn the tables on the ones pushing for "gentrification."
This isn't really about gentrification but I wanted to bring it up. I heard about Mt. Lookout Square which is about to undergo a 2 year, 1.6M renovation project. Don't get me wrong, I love Mt. Lookout...just makes me sad when right around my corner on Bramble, the "business district" (hard to say that without laughing) is so dead its not even funny. There's a bar, In Between Rounds, which I went to a couple times. Even the locals there told me, my GF, and brother we don't wanna be around there during the weekend. How nice, neighborhood bar I can't even go to. Across the street is a long strip of little stores...and all but maybe 2 of them are abandoned. Not even like they are deteriorated messes, in fact the doors and windows are new and look nice. Just that no one wants to move in there I suppose.
Well, Tubby, the city continues to pour money into its pet neighborhoods while letting the others rot. This is nothing new. The city has screwed Madisonville over -- promising redevelopment money and support, etc. -- more times than I can count. You wonder why the Madison Building at Madison and Whetsel was knocked down? The city reneged on its promise of a loan to renovate it and of support to help attract tenants. It still makes steam come out of my ears, and I don't live there any more! The city has done the same to just about every other neighborhood except Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Clifton, etc.
And if I recollect correctly, Mt. Lookout Square has been renovated within recent memory.
Well, Tubby, the city continues to pour money into its pet neighborhoods while letting the others rot. This is nothing new. The city has screwed Madisonville over -- promising redevelopment money and support, etc. -- more times than I can count. You wonder why the Madison Building at Madison and Whetsel was knocked down? The city reneged on its promise of a loan to renovate it and of support to help attract tenants. It still makes steam come out of my ears, and I don't live there any more! The city has done the same to just about every other neighborhood except Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Clifton, etc.
And if I recollect correctly, Mt. Lookout Square has been renovated within recent memory.
That just sucks. Madisonville needs money and support so badly. I'm not even gonna touch that issue though because I despise politics and everyone involved in it. They can all go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned. Might be some good ones in it, but I don't trust any of those *******s. It's just bull$hit. Money for renovations and stuff should be dispersed equally among neighborhoods...WTF is so complicated with that idea? I had heard about why the Madison Building was demo-ed...really sucks because now it's gone forever and it's just a depressing corner. The shopping center there has a Family Dollar, a check cashing store, and "Unlimited Apparel and Wireless".
I don't feel any resentment towards the other neighborhoods because I love them all. Just sucks that the one I'm living in seems to get nothing. All kinds of great things going on in the city, Oakley Square has been worked on for months now and I bet will be smashing when it's done. Now I hear about Mt Lookout being next up...guess no one gives a $hit about that "crime-infested" hole known as Madisonville.
The rebirth of the urban neighborhoods may occur, but I do not think it will be as easy as some of you portray.
A.) It's already happening (where have you been???) ... the hard part is done and early "risk takers" have seen their property values skyrocket.
B.) There are already parents living in the city with kids and kids of all ages. I am one. A lot of our great and great-great grandparents raised our previous family members in the city. It's not hard folks. Actually pretty easy and extremely convenient. Do you know how many parks I can walk to within minutes?
Also, go to the DRC (Downtown Resident's Council) meeting one evening and see how many parents are there. It's great.
Quote:
Question Comforts of Your Youth Q: What do you think it is about the suburbs...that people find comfortable?
A: I think they don’t actually find it comfortable — but everyone is nostalgic for the ****holes of their youth. When we’re young and isolated we don’t know if a place is lousy or not- it’s ours and we are of it, and so we feel a weird closeness. But just as some kids who are abused and beaten think that’s just what growing up is, we ex-suburbanites naturally assume that everyone shared our experience. Many did, but not all.
OTR 5K
We had a great time Saturday at the Gateway Festival or whatever it is called. But it was a long hot day, and three days later I am still recovering from soccer games, retirement parties, lemonade stands, and more soccer games. My son and wife and some good friends all ran the 5K, while I cheered.
A latte cart in OTR ... Would you have guessed you'd see this 10 years ago?
Well, Tubby, the city continues to pour money into its pet neighborhoods while letting the others rot. This is nothing new. The city has screwed Madisonville over -- promising redevelopment money and support, etc. -- more times than I can count. You wonder why the Madison Building at Madison and Whetsel was knocked down? The city reneged on its promise of a loan to renovate it and of support to help attract tenants. It still makes steam come out of my ears, and I don't live there any more! The city has done the same to just about every other neighborhood except Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Clifton, etc.
And if I recollect correctly, Mt. Lookout Square has been renovated within recent memory.
Actually, the Mt. Lookout business district being renovated has not had a dime's worth of public improvement in 35 years.
The rebirth of the urban neighborhoods may occur, but I do not think it will be as easy as some of you portray.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise
A.) It's already happening (where have you been???) ... the hard part is done and early "risk takers" have seen their property values skyrocket.
What do you mean, "where have you been?" Efforts are under way in some neighborhoods, but that's very different from being able to proclaim it a success. I just planted some tomatoes, but there's nothing to celebrate yet.
Plus, defining success is much harder with neighborhood change than it is with a garden. It's impossible not to notice that there are only white people in your photos of Over-the-Rhine. Yet, it's a historically black area that still appears 90 percent black every time I'm there.
So what would constitute success? Affluent whites having nice lives there? Risk takers making money? Reducing the vacancy rate? Better life outcomes for the existing population?
These are open questions, and I don't necessarily have a favorite answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincy-Rise
B.) There are already parents living in the city with kids and kids of all ages. I am one. A lot of our great and great-great grandparents raised our previous family members in the city. It's not hard folks. Actually pretty easy and extremely convenient. Do you know how many parks I can walk to within minutes?
Yes it is hard. When I would take my kid to an inner Cincinnati park, we'd see used condoms on the ground and smell bad air from I-75 (which accommodates about 50,000 semi-trucks per day, about double the number of the mid-1990s). Housing prices were ridiculous, the housing stock was in dangerously poor shape and landlords were unscrupulous. Our next-door neighbor thought it was acceptable to let his dogs bark and snarl at us at all hours. Airplanes and helicopers droned above us. We knew that crime victimhood was more than a remote possibility. A humongous constellation of cell and radio/TV towers beamed electromagnetic radiation at us 24/7, much of it in the microwave portion of the spectrum.
I don't question the reality of your family's satisfaction level there, but there are completely valid reasons to move farther out.
The neighborhood I came from in Indianapolis, Holy Cross is Urban, a 10 minute walk to downtown. The VAST majority of my neighbors were Young families with kids. It is a 'myth' that people settle in Urban environments then split when the kids come. Almost Every neighborhood in Urban Indianapolis has TONS of kids. There are high quality Charter schools and private schools and believe it or not some people send their kids to "gasp" Public school. The magnet and charter schools come as the money, and families with kids come downtown. People are beginning to realize that those one hr one way commutes add up and not to mention all the congestion now in suburbia as people travel to the strip malls and chain restaurants.
Most of my neighbors there moved FROM suburbia with their kids because they wanted them to have access to all the opportunities the downtown has to offer. Art museums, galleries, tons of enterainment events. 10 years ago that neighborhood used to be known as "dodge city" because of all the gunshots, the gangs, the prositutes. Today, it, like almost all downtown neighborhoods are the safest in the city and most expensive. The crime has headed to the near burbs and all those 'nice' suburban neighborhoods built in the 1960-1990's. You are far more likely to find a meth lab in Indy in Suburbia than in any of the downtown neighorhoods. I restored several houses in that neighborhood ( didnt lose a dime in fact I was quite happy with my profit) and watched vacant lots I bought when I first got there and paid a few hundred for selling for 20-40K when I started cashing out.
The same thing happened in Louisville when I lived there.
Cincinnati has diverse urban neighborhoods that offer just about everything. My house in Knox Hill is 5 minutes to downtown across the viaduct yet you'd think you were in the country. I have a 19 acre nature preserve down the street. We have deer wander through our yard occaisionally. I have a large double lot with plenty of room on hill with a stone retaining wall around it. I can go down to Findlay Market and patronize the delis and fresh vegetable vendors. Our neighborhood has everthing from small second empire cottages up to 7000 square foot mansions. Knox Hill sits right on the border between N & S Fairmount neighborhoods that get panned all the time on this board BECAUSE the people on here are living with perceptions that are 10 years out of date. We have over 2 mill in restorations going on in our area right now and more moving in as the slumlords go under because their adjustable rate mortgages came due.
I'll take this view anyday over the burbs. And I only paid 4000.00 for our house! True I have LOTS of restoration to do but I'm not complaining, I couldn't be happier with my decision!
It's impossible not to notice that there are only white people in your photos of Over-the-Rhine. Yet, it's a historically black area that still appears 90 percent black every time I'm there.
So what would constitute success? Affluent whites having nice lives there? Risk takers making money? Reducing the vacancy rate? Better life outcomes for the existing population?
.
OTR: A white working-middle class German neighborhood from 1865-1920
OTR: A poor white Applachian slum from 1925-1950's
OTR: A African American Ghetto from 1960-2001
OTR: Mostly EMPTY from 2001-2004 (post riots)
OTR: Experiencing a real rebirth as a "Community" once again.2005 ON
My point? A similar timeline could apply to your suburban neighborhood a 150 years from now.
Times change, neighborhood change, accept and embrace it.
You need only look at the multi million dollar Washington Park Plan, because it reflects where the neighborhood is headed. GONE the pool and basketball courts . The NEW? Dog Parks, The "Event" lawn, seating nooks with game tables, informational kiosks and lots of lighting. 3CDC is spending millions to create a new park for the new neighborhood. Throw in the downtown casino, the banks project, the Metropole being turned into a luxury boutique Hotel, There is a LOT gong on!
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Couldn't deal with Clifton
