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I am still trying to understand this whole gentrification thing. If I go into a depressed area of the city and buy a crumbling piece of property, say for $4,000, spend another $4,000 to fix the basic problems, and then am able to get some sucker to buy it for $16,000 is this gentrification? If I got some sucker to pay $16,000 for something I have a total $8,000 investment in - Holey God that is a 100% return.
My prediction is this will go the way of every other get rich quick scheme. The ones who get in early will make some money. The rest of us wll be wondering why we ever thought of being involved.
I am still trying to understand this whole gentrification thing.
You are confusing gentrification with speculation. Gentrification can be narrowly defined as wealthier people buying property in a poorer community. The property is then rehabilitated or at least maintained much better than it was previously. One of the effects of gentrification is increased property values, which is why speculators seek to profit from gentrifying neighborhoods.
As many know, the housing market has kinda tanked recently, so people that previously made a living by buying old houses and fixing them up cannot necessarily to make a big profit or even get their money back in a stable or declining neighborhood. As a result, there is a desire to buy rock bottom low because nothing is really selling high enough to justify the expense of renovating a property that will not increase in value by an order of magnitude.
Cincinnati has a lot of neighborhoods that are 'ripe' for gentrification in several ways. First, there is a lot of beautiful old architecture and building materials that would be prohibitively expensive to duplicate using modern construction. Second, Cincinnati does not really have enormous slums like other cities, and the 'bad' neighborhoods are typically smallish pockets of 5-10 blocks scattered throughout the city, and are often just a few good owners replacing bad owners away from a remarkable turnaround. Some in this thread have noted, and given supporting reasons, why certain neighborhoods might gentrify.
I am still trying to understand this whole gentrification thing. If I go into a depressed area of the city and buy a crumbling piece of property, say for $4,000, spend another $4,000 to fix the basic problems, and then am able to get some sucker to buy it for $16,000 is this gentrification? If I got some sucker to pay $16,000 for something I have a total $8,000 investment in - Holey God that is a 100% return.
My prediction is this will go the way of every other get rich quick scheme. The ones who get in early will make some money. The rest of us wll be wondering why we ever thought of being involved.
Chemistry Guy pretty well covered anything I could have said, with the additional (and perhaps very obvious) distinction that when a neighborhood undergoes gentrification, a lot of the people doing the buying and restoring/remodeling actually live in the properties for an extended period of time, embracing the notion of being part of a neighborhood of like-minded people. The idea is to have a nice home of a type they might not otherwise be able to afford, except for their own sweat equity (or at least serving as their own rehab general contractor). This mindset is abundantly obvious in Northside.
This term "gentrification" is defined based on the perspective of the viewer. Gentrification can be a derogatory term referring to the process by which the residents of a disadvantaged neighborhood are priced out of their homes as homes are improved and resold.
This term "gentrification" is defined based on the perspective of the viewer. Gentrification can be a derogatory term referring to the process by which the residents of a disadvantaged neighborhood are priced out of their homes as homes are improved and resold.
In the earlier days of OTR changes, the term "gentrification" was used almost exclusively negatively. Today in Cincinnati and throughout the country, people are no longer afraid to say, "yeah, we want to make this neighborhood more prosperous, even if that means losing some low-income rentals." I don't know if this is good or bad, but it is. I certainly doubt 3CDC is complaining.
In the earlier days of OTR changes, the term "gentrification" was used almost exclusively negatively. Today in Cincinnati and throughout the country, people are no longer afraid to say, "yeah, we want to make this neighborhood more prosperous, even if that means losing some low-income rentals." I don't know if this is good or bad, but it is. I certainly doubt 3CDC is complaining.
Agree. I wonder why the voices of opposition have faded so much in OTR. Can all be the passing of Buddy Gray and the dimming of his terrible legacy on the area?
As a preservationist and old house person "gentrification" is usually a potential side benefit.
However I define it differently and I approach it from a different perspective. Knox Hill was once the weekend homes of the most wealthy German families in Cincinnati. They had their private shooting club with beer gardens overlooking the city where St Clair park is today. The weekend cottages while small in size often had the same detailing you might expect in a Dayton street mansion, because, in fact, the people who lived there hired the same craftsman to build their weekend getaways. Faux marbled cast iron or slate fireplaces, eleborate staircases, fretwork trim, artisan stencilling ,murals and plaster work with ceiling medallions were commonplace in my neighborhood. when you consider the high cost of hauling stone up a hillside by mules for foundations, Bringing craftsman across the Mill Creek Valley, a half day trip in those days, the cost of bringing in lumber, stained glass and millwork up the hills, building the cottages that make up my area were high. That detail is often there hidden with layers of paint or drywall. it takes work to take it back but it is well worth the effort in my opinion.
After the wealthy moved on, my area became an German enclave of mostly upper middle class German craftsman and merchants who enlarged the weekend places for year round use. Those families remained there well into the 1950's. Young GI families moved in in the 1950's and raised their families there. The neighborhood only went into decline when the city started dumping section 8 and emptied out OTR.
I am where I am at, because I appreciate the fact our house built in 1871 as a weekend place for a wealthy industrialist, was sold to a german businessman whose family owned it from 1885 until 2007. there is something to be said for continuity and history
It "gentrification" means that the crack heads, prositutes, drug dealers and gang bangers no longer feel 'comfortable' and can no longer do their illegal activities?.......Too bad .....so sad. If that means my 78 year old neighbor across the street can sit on her front porch of her house she bought in 1953 because the neighborhood is safer now and her house is going back up in value? Well then, in my mind, gentrification is a good thing.
When I look at the stencilled parlor done 139 years ago by some unknown artist that I have carefully restored and recreated. I understand why I do what I do.
Its not really gentrification, its Restoring neighborhoods back to the decent safe places they once were where people can be real neighbors again. In my opinion THAT is what makes these neighborhoods highly desired when they are turned around.
Not to be 'snarky" because I'm sure you've been posting on here longer than me:
Wilson, wilson wilson, Love your points..........except......You are wrong.
First point, I'm well into my early 50's. I bought my first old house as a freshman in college (where I recieved my law degree) so the attorney reference doesn't really impress me, although I'm sure it does some on this board.
Preconceptions? Well lets see, you might want to do the same about me Wilson.
The Knox Hill Cottage puts me at well over 20 homes in the last 30 years or so personally owned and restored by me. A few year back I was restoring 5 homes at once in Indianapolis spending an average of 200K of my own, not borrowed money, on each and it was hectic year. Since I've lived and restored homes in Charleston S.C. and San Francisco. I feel pretty confident that I've paid more for a "fixer" than your house in Hyde Park is worth right now. Hyde Park prices are the 'low rent' district on the coasts.
And yes Wilson, I could fit the entire Knox Hill Cottage, that "little Victorian Museum piece" (whose snarky?)you refer to that I bought for 4000.00, in the 6 car garage of my 14,000 square foot winter house I sold in Boca Raton Florida in 2003. Your "assumption" that all I could afford to buy was a 4000.00 house speaks volumes to what one looks like when they make "assumptions".
I'm here to restore Cincinnati Wilson, not rest on my laurels, or claim to know things about neighborhoods I haven't probably driven through in years. More importantly, I'm not about impressing people with what I
neighborhood I live in, I'm about preserving historic architecture and bringing neighborhoods, that the City of Cincinnati, and people like you, gave up on, a long time ago.
While I consider many of your observations valuable. You are certainly a "treasure trove" of information about how Cincinnati used to be, but, unless you are out there in Neighborhoods RIGHT NOW, restoring them, your 'perceptions' of what is going on in urban neighborhoods in Cincinnati, especially the Westside, is just that, "perception" and not based in reality.
And my offer to take you on a tour still stands.
But I certainly hope when I'm your age, I'm still out there restoring and giving back to Urban neighborhoods that need my help rather than trashing those of us who are out there trying to make a difference.
I predict in 10 years my predictions about Cincinnati Urban Neighborhoods will be far more accurate than yours, maybe we should set a lunch date in 2020?
Post of the Year!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1010
Northside's appeal is based on a fashion trend, not solid fundamentals. Its in the valley, smelly, dirty, noisy. The place was abandoned by the city's early residents in favor of the hills leaving behind a legacy of mediocre housing stock. Its all chopped up and what has been replaced is not good. And, it has a huge population nearby of entrenched vermin always there to slip into the neighborhood and break in or worse. The whole idea that a $10,000 acquisition price is a good thing is just hoooey. Its a fallacy. That $10,000 price is a sign that no one values the property, not that there are a lot of stupid people who have missed a great opportunity. Its a loser's strategy. Like going into a casino and trying to find the game no one is playing, or going to a restaurant BECAUSE it has an empty parking lot. Sorry, its just a loser's strategy.
As the trend wears off, gays realizing that its just as fun to live in a safe, lovely, neighborhood too, the rehabbing will stop and the area will settle into a stagnation just like Madisonville has.
No offense to Madville but it's apples and oranges comparing the two with Northside having the far superior architecture and location. If I were looking at moving, N-Side would be my first choice within the city.
You really should venture into areas before you make broad generalizations.
Westwood is already on it's way up, same with the Fairmounts (haven't seen any of the plans?) Seriously.
No offense to Madville but it's apples and oranges comparing the two with Northside having the far superior architecture and location. If I were looking at moving, N-Side would be my first choice within the city.
You really should venture into areas before you make broad generalizations.
Westwood is already on it's way up, same with the Fairmounts (haven't seen any of the plans?) Seriously.
First point, I'm well into my early 50's. I bought my first old house as a freshman in college (where I recieved my law degree) so the attorney reference doesn't really impress me, although I'm sure it does some on this board.
Preconceptions? Well lets see, you might want to do the same about me Wilson.
The Knox Hill Cottage puts me at well over 20 homes in the last 30 years or so personally owned and restored by me. A few year back I was restoring 5 homes at once in Indianapolis spending an average of 200K of my own, not borrowed money, on each and it was hectic year. Since I've lived and restored homes in Charleston S.C. and San Francisco. I feel pretty confident that I've paid more for a "fixer" than your house in Hyde Park is worth right now. Hyde Park prices are the 'low rent' district on the coasts.
And yes Wilson, I could fit the entire Knox Hill Cottage, that "little Victorian Museum piece" (whose snarky?)you refer to that I bought for 4000.00, in the 6 car garage of my 14,000 square foot winter house I sold in Boca Raton Florida in 2003. Your "assumption" that all I could afford to buy was a 4000.00 house speaks volumes to what one looks like when they make "assumptions".
I'm here to restore Cincinnati Wilson, not rest on my laurels, or claim to know things about neighborhoods I haven't probably driven through in years. More importantly, I'm not about impressing people with what I
neighborhood I live in, I'm about preserving historic architecture and bringing neighborhoods, that the City of Cincinnati, and people like you, gave up on, a long time ago.
Mr. Willham, since you have put your credentials in issue, I must tell you that there is very little that you say about yourself that I believe other than that you are in your 50's.
You say "I am here to restore Cincinnati" yet you bought a little abandoned property two years ago for $4000 and painted it up and haven't even fixed the walkways. It is worth what? Maybe $15,000? It remains vacant, and you remain living in a bland neighborhood of Indianapolis of $75000 houses. And, as far as I can see, you have no other project in Cincinnati.
I see nothing you have ever owned in Indy worth more than $100,000 (although you claim ownership of a $300k property called the Willows) and you seem to have have lived there a long time.
Your Knox Hill Association seems to be mostly you and your computer.
I acknowledge that you are an antique dealer and are probably quite knowledgeable of Victorian detail.
If you post street addresses of your restorations in Indy, and your mansion in Boco Raton, I'll apologize. In the meantime, I call BS.
Last edited by Wilson513; 08-18-2010 at 08:39 PM..
Reason: be nicer
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