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Disagree. It is the very meaning of "Mid-Atlantic". Regardless of what these "textbook" definitions of Mid-Atlantic are, the way that Mid-Atlantic is generally used in conversation refers to Baltimore-Washington specifically, and includes Central and Hampton Roads Virginia, Delaware, and the rest of Maryland pretty much. The rest of the 'definition' is irrelevant because it is inaccurate....
I used to live in Upstate New York. Per the technical definition, that's in the Mid-Atlantic. But that definition is flawed for many reasons, not the least of which that geographically, New York is clearly not in the middle of the Atlantic coast states. Virginia (and Norfolk) is...
So Norfolk isn't more of anything. It is clearly southern, and (obvious to me, maybe not to everyone, though) and clearly Mid-Atlantic; equally both...
I do not believe that is how the Mid-Atlantic got its name. The Mid Atlantic States used to be called the Middle States (and at one time the Middle colonies). The New England States were sometimes called the Eastern States. They were called the Middle States because they were between New England and the South - not because of their position along the coast. The "Atlantic" was added as the country grew westward.
The census definition of Mid Atlantic is a snap shot of what the census thought the regions were around 1910 (I forget the exact year). Maryland, let along Virginia were still considered Southern back then. Other sources show the name beginning to move south.
So the point is that the name Mid Atlantic probably came about for historic reasons not a hazy definition of what the mid point of the Atlantic coast is.
Southern in every way shape and form. Northern Virginia is the only part of Virginia that's Mid Atlantic/Northeastern. The rest of the state is Southern.
I do not believe that is how the Mid-Atlantic got its name. The Mid Atlantic States used to be called the Middle States (and at one time the Middle colonies). The New England States were sometimes called the Eastern States. They were called the Middle States because they were between New England and the South - not because of their position along the coast. The "Atlantic" was added as the country grew westward.
The census definition of Mid Atlantic is a snap shot of what the census thought the regions were around 1910 (I forget the exact year). Maryland, let along Virginia were still considered Southern back then. Other sources show the name beginning to move south.
So the point is that the name Mid Atlantic probably came about for historic reasons not a hazy definition of what the mid point of the Atlantic coast is.
That seems about right because I've seen some definitions that include Philadelphia and New York City in Mid-Atlantic.
Wow, I honestly forgot all about this topic. Great post; I agree with a lot of what you mentioned in this thread. I grew up in Central Virginia (Farmville, Cumberland, Nottoway, Lynchburg) and the Tidewater area (Chesapeake). Furthermore, I traveled to Richmond/Petersburg on a weekly basis as a youth; therefore, I am extremely familiar with Central Virginia and the Hampton Roads area. In high school, I remember several occasions where people moved from Rocky Mount NC, Elizabeth City NC, and other areas in central/eastern NC. On every occasion the people from NC stood out instantly as being southern/country in VA (Central, and Tidewater) as far as accents and lifestyle. Additionally, I knew some people who moved from DC/PG County Maryland/Nova/Richmond/Eastern Shore VA/MD, who people thought had "regular" accents to tidewater natives. However, the northern accents (NYC/Philly/Jersey/Boston) and the stronger southern accents (southside/southwestern VA, areas of NC, GA, TN, KY, etc) always stand out in the tidewater area as being different. It is amazing to me how the average accent changes so drastically from an area like Norfolk down to Elizabeth City NC, or Rocky Mount NC. I would say many people in Hampton Roads, especially in VA Beach, have tidewater/southern-lite accents that sound almost neutral to the point where an outsider would struggle with identifying where the person was from. I agree with you that we are also different than northerners (NYC, Philly, Jersey) as well. Southern mid-atlantic is probably the best classification for the main metros of Virginia. As far as architecture, people forget that Norfolk/Portsmouth have areas dominated by row-homes as well (Ghent, Old Towne), albeit not as prevalent as in Richmond.
That's one difference between VA and NC, at least historically. In the eyes of Virginians, it seems like we're always seen as more southern and redneck-ish. Richmond and Rocky Mount are what, two hours apart? However, Richmond has a more luxurious history, while Rocky Mount is like any other Eastern NC country town. VA had wealth, lots of tobacco plantations along the James and aristocratic families. NC was poor and rural, populated by tons of yeoman farmers living in backwoods conditions who could barely make a living. VA generals during the Civil War looked down on North Carolinians, and Governor Zeb Vance urged Jefferson Davis to make sure Virginians didn't command North Carolinians.
You really don't encounter too many thick drawls down here in the Research Triangle anymore, especially if you're speaking to someone under 40. I can't imagine areas like North Raleigh and Cary are that much more southern than VA metros. I think Raleigh/Durham is more southern than Richmond, but I did a poll here on CD and Richmond is leading so obviously many people like to believe we've lost southern roots. It's true in some ways, transplants mainly from the Northeast have been moving here since the 1960's. Go on the Triangle forum and look at all the, "Moving to Raleigh from NY" threads. However, I'm from this area. If you come down from DC or Richmond, I'm sure it'll probably strike you as more southern. I think many areas of Central Virginia and North Carolina are pretty similar, though. Especially towns like Danville, South Boston, South Hill, and even Petersburg, Farmville, Lynchburg, and (dare I say) Richmond.
@jay, but here's where you're wrong though. First of all, Farmville, Lynchburg, Danville, etc are not Central Virginia; they're South Side Virginia. I have been to South Boston and South Hill; regardless, the only city you named that is in Central Virginia is Petersburg. Now, I've never been to any one of those other cities, so maybe those areas are more similar to NC. I wouldn't know...
Central Virginia, coming from points south, is synonymous with Greater Richmond and begins in the Tri-Cities (e.g. "The Tri-Cities of Greater Richmond). The Tri-Cities is the independent cities of Petersburg, Hopewell, Colonial Heights; and the counties of Prince George and Dinwiddie. Prince George runs into the beginning of the Tidewater/Hampton Roads once you cross into Sussex County or Surry County; in fact, on clear days we used to be able to pick up Channel 10 in Norfolk.
The city of Hopewell is formerly a part of PG, and the city of Petersburg essentially lies between PG and Dinwiddie counties. I've said it before, Durham is the only locale in MC remotely reminiscent of Petersburg; Petersburg really is rather different from North Carolina cities. People love comparing Richmond to Winston on here, but the two cities are not that similar. There is a different feel culturally and physically from anywhere in the Big VA 3 to anywhere in NC. That's just how it is...
I work with a guy from Raleigh right now, he's 26, and he has a typical Raleigh/eastern NC accent. I sort of see (lol) this girl from Durham who works for Duke Hospital, same thing with her. She's 24...
@goofy, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Richmond did preserve more of its historic neighborhoods. However, I guess I was just pointing out that not just downtown, but the entirety of inner-city Richmond (from Church Hill to Scott's Addition/Museuem District/Carytown; from Brookland Park/Barton Heights/Ginter Park to Manchester) is denser and more urban than the equivalent neighborhoods of inner-city Norfolk. Based on pedestrian traffic, diversity in venues, "activity/things going on" in the streets, etc. the built form is similar in a lot of neighborhoods between the two....
I do agree with your statement about comparing them, though...
@jay, but here's where you're wrong though. First of all, Farmville, Lynchburg, Danville, etc are not Central Virginia; they're South Side Virginia. I have been to South Boston and South Hill; regardless, the only city you named that is in Central Virginia is Petersburg. Now, I've never been to any one of those other cities, so maybe those areas are more similar to NC. I wouldn't know...
Central Virginia, coming from points south, is synonymous with Greater Richmond and begins in the Tri-Cities (e.g. "The Tri-Cities of Greater Richmond). The Tri-Cities is the independent cities of Petersburg, Hopewell, Colonial Heights; and the counties of Prince George and Dinwiddie. Prince George runs into the beginning of the Tidewater/Hampton Roads once you cross into Sussex County or Surry County; in fact, on clear days we used to be able to pick up Channel 10 in Norfolk.
The city of Hopewell is formerly a part of PG, and the city of Petersburg essentially lies between PG and Dinwiddie counties. I've said it before, Durham is the only locale in MC remotely reminiscent of Petersburg; Petersburg really is rather different from North Carolina cities. People love comparing Richmond to Winston on here, but the two cities are not that similar. There is a different feel culturally and physically from anywhere in the Big VA 3 to anywhere in NC. That's just how it is...
I work with a guy from Raleigh right now, he's 26, and he has a typical Raleigh/eastern NC accent. I sort of see (lol) this girl from Durham who works for Duke Hospital, same thing with her. She's 24...
@goofy, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Richmond did preserve more of its historic neighborhoods. However, I guess I was just pointing out that not just downtown, but the entirety of inner-city Richmond (from Church Hill to Scott's Addition/Museuem District/Carytown; from Brookland Park/Barton Heights/Ginter Park to Manchester) is denser and more urban than the equivalent neighborhoods of inner-city Norfolk. Based on pedestrian traffic, diversity in venues, "activity/things going on" in the streets, etc. the built form is similar in a lot of neighborhoods between the two....
I do agree with your statement about comparing them, though...
Cool. Richmond is a lot easier on the eyes. Richmond reminds me of Cincinnati; great architecture, great neighborhoods, very historical. Norfolk is like Cleveland; dirty, gritty, rough roads, spotty architecture, a greater emphasis on post modernism. Cleveland did a great job of converting their factories into lofts, whereas Cincinnati has neighborhoods like Over The Rhine emphasizing that classical German flair. Both cities have both forms but each city has different strengths.
@jay, but here's where you're wrong though. First of all, Farmville, Lynchburg, Danville, etc are not Central Virginia; they're South Side Virginia. I have been to South Boston and South Hill; regardless, the only city you named that is in Central Virginia is Petersburg. Now, I've never been to any one of those other cities, so maybe those areas are more similar to NC. I wouldn't know...
Central Virginia, coming from points south, is synonymous with Greater Richmond and begins in the Tri-Cities (e.g. "The Tri-Cities of Greater Richmond). The Tri-Cities is the independent cities of Petersburg, Hopewell, Colonial Heights; and the counties of Prince George and Dinwiddie. Prince George runs into the beginning of the Tidewater/Hampton Roads once you cross into Sussex County or Surry County; in fact, on clear days we used to be able to pick up Channel 10 in Norfolk.
The city of Hopewell is formerly a part of PG, and the city of Petersburg essentially lies between PG and Dinwiddie counties. I've said it before, Durham is the only locale in MC remotely reminiscent of Petersburg; Petersburg really is rather different from North Carolina cities. People love comparing Richmond to Winston on here, but the two cities are not that similar. There is a different feel culturally and physically from anywhere in the Big VA 3 to anywhere in NC. That's just how it is...
I work with a guy from Raleigh right now, he's 26, and he has a typical Raleigh/eastern NC accent. I sort of see (lol) this girl from Durham who works for Duke Hospital, same thing with her. She's 24...
@goofy, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Richmond did preserve more of its historic neighborhoods. However, I guess I was just pointing out that not just downtown, but the entirety of inner-city Richmond (from Church Hill to Scott's Addition/Museuem District/Carytown; from Brookland Park/Barton Heights/Ginter Park to Manchester) is denser and more urban than the equivalent neighborhoods of inner-city Norfolk. Based on pedestrian traffic, diversity in venues, "activity/things going on" in the streets, etc. the built form is similar in a lot of neighborhoods between the two....
I do agree with your statement about comparing them, though...
Just out of curiosity, can you describe the Raleigh/Eastern NC accent? How is it different from where you're coming from, just a little more southern?
I gotcha, but how is Petersburg in Central VA but Farmville and Lynchburg aren't?
Just out of curiosity, can you describe the Raleigh/Eastern NC accent? How is it different from where you're coming from, just a little more southern?
I gotcha, but how is Petersburg in Central VA but Farmville and Lynchburg aren't?
Well, I've never been to Farmville or Lynchburg. All I know is that Farmville is well over an hour west of Petersburg, and Lynchburg is an hour beyond that. I spent part of my upbringing in Northern Virginia, the other part in Central Virginia. All I can tell you is that neither Farmville nor Lynchburg are in the general Richmond area; that is what Central Virginia is, the Richmond region. I've really not heard Farmville mention d in casual convo, but when you talk about Lynchburg, it is definitely spoken of as going out of town. Most people in Richmond have no need to go to Petersburg (lol), but when they do, it's not like you're "going out of town", you're just going down to Petersburg. The only people I really know who do this ar people I grew up with who now live in the city...
Regardless, the border between Richmond and Petersburg at its closest point (VSU to Southside Rich, crossing 288) is only separated by a distance of 13 miles, a 15-20 minute drive. It's straight up the Boulevard through Colonial Heights, which turns in U.S. 301/1 through Chester. It's a straight shot, no turns or anything, from Southside to Petersburg. I've made this trip many times, because of John Tyler and the shopping in Chester, and the fact my mom used to work in the Meadowbrook neighborhood of Southside. So my point is that Richmond and Petersburg are far more connected, to the extent there is one road---the same road--you can take from one to the other. Farmville and Lynchburg have no intimate connectivity to Rich any more than Norfolk does....Central Virginia means "Richmond area". Those cities are not in the Richmond area...
Eastern NC has a thicker southern accent. You guys tend to speak fast in the Triangle, though, for the most part. Charlotte is thick, but they speak slower. It's in the pronunciation of words as well. I've generally heard that same accent in people from the Triangle, Rocky Mount, and Fayetteville. South of Fayetteville, though (Robeson), and west for the areas between Fayetteville and Charlotte on 74, it gets country to a whole nother level! Lol...
Well, I've never been to Farmville or Lynchburg. All I know is that Farmville is well over an hour west of Petersburg, and Lynchburg is an hour beyond that. I spent part of my upbringing in Northern Virginia, the other part in Central Virginia. All I can tell you is that neither Farmville nor Lynchburg are in the general Richmond area; that is what Central Virginia is, the Richmond region. I've really not heard Farmville mention d in casual convo, but when you talk about Lynchburg, it is definitely spoken of as going out of town. Most people in Richmond have no need to go to Petersburg (lol), but when they do, it's not like you're "going out of town", you're just going down to Petersburg. The only people I really know who do this ar people I grew up with who now live in the city...
Regardless, the border between Richmond and Petersburg at its closest point (VSU to Southside Rich, crossing 288) is only separated by a distance of 13 miles, a 15-20 minute drive. It's straight up the Boulevard through Colonial Heights, which turns in U.S. 301/1 through Chester. It's a straight shot, no turns or anything, from Southside to Petersburg. I've made this trip many times, because of John Tyler and the shopping in Chester, and the fact my mom used to work in the Meadowbrook neighborhood of Southside. So my point is that Richmond and Petersburg are far more connected, to the extent there is one road---the same road--you can take from one to the other. Farmville and Lynchburg have no intimate connectivity to Rich any more than Norfolk does....Central Virginia means "Richmond area". Those cities are not in the Richmond area...
Eastern NC has a thicker southern accent. You guys tend to speak fast in the Triangle, though, for the most part. Charlotte is thick, but they speak slower. It's in the pronunciation of words as well. I've generally heard that same accent in people from the Triangle, Rocky Mount, and Fayetteville. South of Fayetteville, though (Robeson), and west for the areas between Fayetteville and Charlotte on 74, it gets country to a whole nother level! Lol...
Oh okay, makes sense. Richmond and Petersburg aren't far apart at all, there has always been a lot of traffic on I-95 between them at least whenever I'm up in that area. Head south of Petersburg down to NC and it's a little more rural, and definitely the stretch of I-85 between Petersburg and Durham. At least down here in the Triangle, and I've probably mentioned this before, but you don't hear a lot of mention of people going up to the Richmond area except the occasional trip to Kings Dominion. This seems to be more of the case in Richmond, as most people don't seem to have a reason to visit Raleigh/Durham or areas south. Regardless, I still see at least ten Virginia license plates a day down here in the Triangle. Far more than South Carolina, that's for sure.
The Triangle has lost much of its drawl over the years, no doubt. Our accents are becoming more "generic American" as transplants continue settling down here. Trust me, I graduated from a Raleigh high school a few years back and you rarely heard thick accents. The one thick accent you rarely heard usually came from a transplanted kid out of some podunk Eastern NC town. However, the rural areas just outside the metro will have the thicker NC drawls. Some of the thicker accents you might hear in this area are probably from these folks out of towns like Zebulon, Smithfield, Louisburg, Oxford, Lillington, Roxboro, etc. Go over to Greensboro/Winston-Salem and you'll hear stronger accents, and definitely rural Eastern NC. South of Fayetteville is practically Deep South, areas like Robeson Co. Even coming from Raleigh, that's definitely a whole nother level!
@jay, but here's where you're wrong though. First of all, Farmville, Lynchburg, Danville, etc are not Central Virginia; they're South Side Virginia. I have been to South Boston and South Hill; regardless, the only city you named that is in Central Virginia is Petersburg. Now, I've never been to any one of those other cities, so maybe those areas are more similar to NC. I wouldn't know...
Central Virginia, coming from points south, is synonymous with Greater Richmond and begins in the Tri-Cities (e.g. "The Tri-Cities of Greater Richmond). The Tri-Cities is the independent cities of Petersburg, Hopewell, Colonial Heights; and the counties of Prince George and Dinwiddie. Prince George runs into the beginning of the Tidewater/Hampton Roads once you cross into Sussex County or Surry County; in fact, on clear days we used to be able to pick up Channel 10 in Norfolk.
The city of Hopewell is formerly a part of PG, and the city of Petersburg essentially lies between PG and Dinwiddie counties. I've said it before, Durham is the only locale in MC remotely reminiscent of Petersburg; Petersburg really is rather different from North Carolina cities. People love comparing Richmond to Winston on here, but the two cities are not that similar. There is a different feel culturally and physically from anywhere in the Big VA 3 to anywhere in NC. That's just how it is...
I work with a guy from Raleigh right now, he's 26, and he has a typical Raleigh/eastern NC accent. I sort of see (lol) this girl from Durham who works for Duke Hospital, same thing with her. She's 24...
@goofy, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Richmond did preserve more of its historic neighborhoods. However, I guess I was just pointing out that not just downtown, but the entirety of inner-city Richmond (from Church Hill to Scott's Addition/Museuem District/Carytown; from Brookland Park/Barton Heights/Ginter Park to Manchester) is denser and more urban than the equivalent neighborhoods of inner-city Norfolk. Based on pedestrian traffic, diversity in venues, "activity/things going on" in the streets, etc. the built form is similar in a lot of neighborhoods between the two....
I do agree with your statement about comparing them, though...
Please tell me how Durham and Petersburg are remotely reminiscent of each other? Durham is a city of approximately 250,000 people, home of Duke University , NC Central, DPAC(i.e. one of the top Performing Arts Centers in the country), Durham Bulls Triple-A baseball, Research Triangle Park (Durham County) and considered one of the the most educated cities in America.
Petersburg Virginia - population ~32,000 Education: Virginia State University. Can you tell me anything of how this city is similiar to Durham? The population in Petersburg is shrinking while Durham population is growing at fast rate(i.e faster than Richmond's population).
How can you compare two cities that are clearly in two leagues that aren't even close?
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