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of course they're two cities. so are san francisco and san jose. so are dallas and fort worth. what makes the dc and baltimore csa any less credible?
Exactly. D.C. and Baltimore have substantially overlapping MSAs. And their job markets overlap as well. This is indisputable. So, I have no idea what the opposing argument is.
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Originally Posted by HtownLove
Nah, I think it shows the opposite.
I think that it shows how much a stretch CSA'a are that they stretch Boston and DC into being comparable to Chicago.
Again I cannot agree with this. First of all we are not comparing apples to apples when talking Chicago CSA vs DC-Baltimore. Chicago is much like Houston or Atlanta etc in the sense that it is a stand alone city with one media market and the only major one within 100 miles at least...Baltimore-Washington should be compared more relative to the Bay Area, DFW etc. Where you have a "2 cities in one combo." Plus the Chicago CSA still stretches 3 states and sprawls out too. It will never be a full apples to apples comparison in terms of metro markets, because it will ALWAYS be 2 vs 1. But the question is again what is the best measure of a region? Not which MSA or CSA seems fair. Therefore in order to compare regions we must go by the numbers that stand. If we are talking about "Region" in the DC or Baltimore areas, and we expanded the "Region" to the scale of Chicagoland, you would have to include both metro markets of Baltimore and Washington. Meaning DC-Baltimore is comparable to Chicago based on the numbers don't fault us for having 2 major cities in a 35 mile stretch it just is what it is.
And lets stop acting like we are trying to "Add on numbers for DC." The official name of the "Region" is Baltimore-Washington metropolitan area. Baltimore is still the larger city and is still named first for census purposes. So if your from Chicago or anywhere and have a problem with us, have your problem with Baltimore which is the largest city in the 4th largest CSA in the country.
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Originally Posted by HtownLove
Okay Resident, I agree with whatever you think DC's true measure is, okay?
Not trying to make you agree, just trying to figure out and understand why people don't realize why these CSA vs MSA arguements are so pointless and miss leading.
I was talking to a girl from DC out here she said sometimes when she got bored she would hop on the highway and drive around to all the different cities around the city one of the cities she mentioned was DC, so that should tell you that y'all are definitely intertwined in to one.
I don't think there's a single best way to measure a region. None of the measures mentioned are 100% flawless and there are almost always extenuating circumstances.
I'll use the regions I'm familiar with for examples.
MSA and CSA numbers are determined using county-based systems. Well, in New England, counties are almost a non-factor (cities and towns are much more "individual" and distinct) and it can lead to odd and misleading information with MSA/CSA data.
Here's an example of a really skewed MSA stat due to county-based measurments. Portland, ME.
Portland is in Southern Cumberland County. It's close to parts of both York and Sagadahoc county and certain people live close enough in each county to commute to Portland. The problem is that those counties are HUGE (together they are more than DOUBLE the land area of Rhode Island with about 1/2 the population of Rhode Island) and the parts within reach of Portland are only a tiny fraction. Because the Census uses the county based system, Portland, a small city of 65,000 people shows up with MSA number of over 500,000 people. It's exceptionally misleading as all that number is is a combined population of York, Cumberland and Sagadahoc Counties. The VAST majority of that land is extremely rural and in no way looks anything like its part of a metropolitan area. Portland urbanized area number (188,000) is about 1/3 the size of the MSA number. If you ever went to Portland Maine expecting to be in an area of around 500k, you'd be shocked. It looks and feels much closer to a metropolitan area of around 230,000 (which is what the city's website lists its metro area at). It's a real case of not being able to trust the MSA statistic.
Moreover, with MSA numbers you have the issue of overlap in highly populated areas (i.e. the Northeast). It's hard to classify an area with overlap as part of one city's metro area or another.
An example of this...
I grew up in Freetown, MA. We bordered a town called Lakeville and shared a school district with them. Freetown was in Bristol County (Providence MSA) and Lakeville was in Plymouth County (Boston MSA). These towns were very much interconnected (beyond school districts- athletics, clubs, and other activities are shared) and each had a substantial number of residents who commuted to Providence and Boston (sometimes one parent to each city in a family). The best way to describe them was towns that were split close to 50/50. According to the Census bureau, Freetown was part of one MSA and Lakeville part of another.
This is also very true along the 95 corridor (especially close to the 495 interchange) between Boston and Providence. You see this all around the Northeast (the Bay Area out West is another). It's hard to tell where suburban NYC ends and suburban Philly begins. Same for Baltimore and Washington.
CSAs help, but they're not the definite answer. For example, If you combine the Boston and Providence MSAs, you solve a little overlap issue, but you almost make the area too big. For example, I doubt folks in Manchester NH and Newport RI would ever feel that they're part of the same region, let alone metropolitan area (it's 125 miles between the two cities). You fix one problem and add another.
Urbanized Area numbers give you a better feel for how built a city and it's suburbs are, but they don't take into account the fringe and exurban areas that aren't quite suburban, but are still intertwined with the principal city.
Of course, city limit populations alone are almost completely useless to get a feel for how big a city or region is.
The solution, in my opinion, is to look at Urbanized Area and MSA numbers and take something in the middle (but a little closer to the Urbanized Area number), and factor in CSA numbers a distant third since there are only a few examples where a CSA might give one a better feel for the size of the region (I think the SF Bay Area is a big example). No one metric will give you an accurate tally, but combining a few can help you get a better feel.
Is majority of the population commuting to Portland? Or are there other cities in those counties? It's similar to many in the New Orleans MSA. Tangipahoa Parish reaches all the way to MS but its population base is closer to New Orleans and commutes there everyday.
Is majority of the population commuting to Portland? Or are there other cities in those counties? It's similar to many in the New Orleans MSA. Tangipahoa Parish reaches all the way to MS but its population base is closer to New Orleans and commutes there everyday.
It's probably close to about 50% or maybe a little less (which is why I think the 230,000 metro number is far more accurate) who commute to Portland, but most of those live in the only really built up section of that area immediately adjacent to Portland/South Portland/Biddeford. A tiny portion of the overall land area that constitutes the MSA. The rest of the population lives in largely very rural areas well outside of what could be considered even exurban Portland. Many (probably 30%) of them live on the fringe of those counties closer to other important cities just across the borders of the Portland MSA (i.e. Portsmouth NH, Lewiston, ME) and utilize those areas for work and daily activities (shopping, dining, nightlife, healthcare, etc). I'll elaborate below.
For example, York County directly borders Portsmouth, New Hampshire which is a regional job center, distinctly separate from Portland. Many people commute to work in the Portsmouth area. Also along the York County border are Dover and Rochester, New Hampshire which employ a lot of people in York County. Porstmouth, Rochester and Dover are MUCH more interconnected with the border communities in York County than Portland is.
Sanford, Maine is a larger employment center in Maine within York County that's very much separate from Portland. On the other hand, Saco/Biddeford is very much linked to Portland.
Finally, just outside of Cumberland County, you have Lewiston/Auburn which is the second largest urban area in Maine and one of the biggest job centers i the state. Many people commute from Cumberland County to Lewiston.
The southernmost towns in York County are within a reasonable commuting distance to Boston. Many in York and Kittery commute into the Boston area for work.
My point is that the counties that make up what the census defines as the Portland MSA aren't even close to being mostly suburban Portland. You're looking at somewhere around 50% (or less) of the population living near Portland/Biddeford and commuting there. About 30% living on the fringes of that area and having a principle city other than Portland (i.e. Lewiston ME and Portsmouth, Rochester, and Dover NH) just outside the boundaries of the Portland MSA. and about 20% living in rural areas that really have no business being part of any "metropolitan" area.
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