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Yeah, various cities have specific areas that are known as "downtown.". But for national comparisons it helps to have consistent definitions of downtown that apply to the broader core activity center. Otherwise you end up with nonsensical comparisons where high rises around the Boston North Station aren't downtown, but residential row houses areas in Society Hill are in DT Philly.
I thought that Downtown Boston did include all of the original peninsula on which the Town of Boston sat. (Both the Back Bay and the South End sit on landfill that eliminated bays, as the Back Bay's name even reflects.)
Who puts the North Station district outside Downtown Boston? I'm pretty sure that Boston's downtown residential population resides primarily on Beacon Hill, with the North End and Charles River Park (former West End) contributing.
I thought that Downtown Boston did include all of the original peninsula on which the Town of Boston sat. (Both the Back Bay and the South End sit on landfill that eliminated bays, as the Back Bay's name even reflects.)
Who puts the North Station district outside Downtown Boston? I'm pretty sure that Boston's downtown residential population resides primarily on Beacon Hill, with the North End and Charles River Park (former West End) contributing.
I don't know that there is an official definition of downtown. But, at least for planning purposes the Boston Planning agency considers Bacon Hill, West End, North End, Chinatown to be separate from the downtown.
This isn't really a topic I care that strongly about. But, I was just noting I agree with MHayes point that counting downtown residential populations is fairly subject. Particularly for dense cities with mixed use cores. Plus, at the end of the day, if you go to Center City Philly on a Saturday, 80% of the people you see on the streets don't like there. So downtown population counts aren't really that important to how vibrant an area is anyway.
I think we are making separate points. Cleveland may be geographically larger, but that is based on a consistent framework for what constitutes a downtown.
My point is the areas that are functionally downtown in many cities does not correspond with what many locals refer to as downtown.
Large sections of Center City Philly feels more like a downtown adjacent neighborhood than downtown itself. IMO, it is more analogous to Boston Proper than DT Boston.
By "Boston proper" I assume you mean the original 1630 Town/1822 City of Boston minus the adjacent towns it annexed over the last half of the 19th century. This territory includes the Back Bay, South End, Bay Village and South Boston.
If you're going to call Society Hill "downtown adjacent," then what's Beacon Hill? It seems to me that the only difference between this Beacon Hill street and this one in Society Hill is that the street is narrower in Beacon Hill. Remove Charles River Park, Society Hill Towers and Rittenhouse Square from the equation, and the residential districts of Downtown Boston and Center City Philadelphia very much resemble each other. And since I mentioned Ritenhouse Square, does this look "downtown adjacent"?
That said, if we go by the political boundaries, then the two neighborhoods that turned the Neck that connected Boston to the mainland into part of the mainland should also be included. But Residential Back Bay looks more like residential Beacon Hill or Society Hill than it does Rittenhouse Square, though, and Bay Village and the South End ditto.
By "Boston proper" I assume you mean the original 1630 Town/1822 City of Boston minus the adjacent towns it annexed over the last half of the 19th century. This territory includes the Back Bay, South End, Bay Village and South Boston.
If you're going to call Society Hill "downtown adjacent," then what's Beacon Hill? It seems to me that the only difference between this Beacon Hill street and this one in Society Hill is that the street is narrower in Beacon Hill. Remove Charles River Park, Society Hill Towers and Rittenhouse Square from the equation, and the residential districts of Downtown Boston and Center City Philadelphia very much resemble each other. And since I mentioned Ritenhouse Square, does this look "downtown adjacent"?
That said, if we go by the political boundaries, then the two neighborhoods that turned the Neck that connected Boston to the mainland into part of the mainland should also be included. Residential Back Bay looks more like residential Beacon Hill or Society Hill than it does Rittenhouse Square, and Bay Village and the South End ditto.
My understanding of Boston Proper is: South End, Back Bay, Fenway, and the DT peninsula. FWIW, I do think Philly feels like a bigger city in the core and has a higher peak intensity around City Hall, Walnut/Chestnut/Market Street. But, if we are talking nationally and comparing the top 10 downtowns in the US, it feels weird to exclude Back Bay from Boston's discussion. It is contiguous with the traditional downtown and features some of the most active pedestrian streets in the country. While rowhouse parts away from the high spine don't necessarily feel like a downtown area, the high spine/Boylston street corridor does, with its high rises, office buildings, hotels, civic squares, public transit hubs etc.
My understanding of Boston Proper is: South End, Back Bay, Fenway, and the DT peninsula. FWIW, I do think Philly feels like a bigger city in the core and has a higher peak intensity around City Hall, Walnut/Chestnut/Market Street. But, if we are talking nationally and comparing the top 10 downtowns in the US, it feels weird to exclude Back Bay from Boston's discussion. It is contiguous with the traditional downtown and features some of the most active pedestrian streets in the country. While rowhouse parts away from the high spine don't necessarily feel like a downtown area, the high spine/Boylston street corridor does, with its high rises, office buildings, hotels, civic squares, public transit hubs etc.
I agree with you about the Back Bay, which both looks and functions like an extension of the downtown. The point I was making with that Street View is that the residential parts of both downtowns (Boston and Philly) are decidedly low-rise. Rittenhouse Square is the exception in Philadelphia and Charles River Park (one of those oddities, a "slum clearance" project that replaced low-rise townhouses with "chunks of Radiant Garden City" that the affluent rather than the poor moved into) the exception in Boston.
Yeah New Orleans is a good example. The French quarter is very urban, it's the oldest part of the city, it's the cultural hub of the city, etc. But it's absolutely not "downtown" which is on the other side of Canal, and there is zero mistaking the CBD for the French Quarter as they are very different.
Of course, I also understand why it feels pedantic to not consider the FQ when ranking New Orleans as a downtown, because obviously it's a short walk to get from downtown to the heart of the quarter.
DC is like this for me as well. It's a fantastic urban city by American standards, and there are many great urban neighborhoods connected into downtown, but the downtown itself doesn't really capture the interesting parts of the city IMO.
I think you have it reversed.
Downtown is the French Quarter.
The CBD is part of the Greater Downtown area but strangely enough the CBD is technically outside downtown
I don't know that there is an official definition of downtown. But, at least for planning purposes the Boston Planning agency considers Bacon Hill, West End, North End, Chinatown to be separate from the downtown.
This isn't really a topic I care that strongly about. But, I was just noting I agree with MHayes point that counting downtown residential populations is fairly subject. Particularly for dense cities with mixed use cores. Plus, at the end of the day, if you go to Center City Philly on a Saturday, 80% of the people you see on the streets don't like there. So downtown population counts aren't really that important to how vibrant an area is anyway.
Idk to me, a Boston native, when I think of Downtown I think of Shawmut Peninsula bar West End down to Seaport Square and Chinatown
This endless debate on a smaller city proper means its downtown region should be smaller or larger and exceptions etc. The US Census believes it is fair on using a 1.8 mile general radius with groupings. Guess someone needs to notify the US Census that a 1.8 mile radius + is too much or too little. It seems to work out not too bad to me, but who am I to see it is not a bad standard.
Since this term "downtown" is merely an expression with no formal or legal means to calculate some kind of statistic? Yet we do have the US Census alone with some cities that do formally define its downtown or a CBD or both. Seems many cities in the world have no problem declaring theirs.
Some cities get some bodies of water in its radius with some more and some less. Still, it seems to work pretty well including at least all of a minimum downtown and some perhaps some argue should be included etc. There is no formula of a downtown ratio to a city-proper or metro size. So the census chose this radius
This link gives growth of US downtowns, using US Census tracks that it defines for major city downtowns.
--- To determine the cities with booming downtowns, 24/7 Wall St. reviewed five-year data on population change from the U.S. Census Bureau’s 2022 American Community Survey. Cities were ranked based on the percentage change in population in their downtown census tracts from 2012 to 2022.
--- Downtown areas were defined as the census tracts that fall at least 50% within the 1.8-mile radius around a city hall. Non-downtown areas were defined as the census tracts that fall at least 50% within a city’s boundaries, yet less than 50% within the 1.8-mile radius around city hall. Boundary definitions are from the U.S. Census Bureau and are for 2022. Only principal cities of metropolitan statistical areas were considered. City hall coordinates as well as supplemental data on income are also from the Census Bureau.
I also found this link and tool to map out a 1.8 mile radius by a street address. So I used the street address of each city and it drew me a radius on a map of that core area.
The Link I used to make the radius by the address of the city's City Hall to 1.8 miles out.
I pre-typed in the - address of the city's City Hall (if I got it right) and mile radius to form - 1.8 miles.
IF THE BELOW LINKS ARE CLICKED ON.
WAIT A "COUPLE SECONDS - TILL IT GOES TO 1.8 MILES" and the RADIUS MAP SHOULD SHOW AND CHANGE TO THE PRE-SET ADDRESS RADIUS OF 1.8 miles FROM THAT CITY'S - CITY HALL.
* These were cities some debated and mentioned. To me it works pretty close and might lessen endless debate on size to stick to more the US census and the link on - CITIES THAT HAVE DOWNTOWNS THAT GREW THE MOST by using the CENSUS downtown measurement for each.
Das_Interwebz: I find it interesting to note that the majority of those 40 booming downtowns 24/7 Wall St. identified are in small to mid-sized cities.
You also have a typo in one of your addresses. 950 24th St NW in Washington, DC, would put you somewhere in Foggy Bottom. I believe the address of the District Building is 950 14th St NW. It's within sight of the White House.
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