Minneapolis-St Paul vs Phoenix (population, downtown, size, raise)

[Ghengis]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

BTW, the MBA programs at ASU and UofM are both ranked #30 overall in US News and World Report. I don't see how this makes Minneapolis any better.

MBA, that leads to Mother's Basement Address I believe.

[srsmn]

Originally Posted by Pimpy

Guidance counselors and helicopter parents who obsess over esoteric college rankings may be familiar with those schools, but I would bet money that the CEOs of Chase and Wells Fargo are not.

I wouldn't recommend ANY ambitious high school kid shell out that kind of money and work that hard for a degree only to have prospective employers and business partners respond, "Where? Is that a community college?" when he tells them where he went to school.

Their money would be much better spent on a MARKETABLE degree (i.e. NOT in liberal arts) from a huge, reputable school that everyone knows about like UCLA, The University of Texas, or UNC-Chapel Hill.

Um, yeah, if you want to impress the CEO of Chase or Wells Fargo, it would be important to go through a highly ranked business program. But that is a very, very small subset of the college world. If you wanted to be an attorney, a top 20 Law School (like, I dunno...the U of M) would be more eye-popping than UCLA, Texas, or Chapel Hill.

You do understand that there are better gauges of a college or university's repute than its business or MBA program, don't you?

[srsmn]

Originally Posted by Pimpy

Wells Fargo was just a random example that could be interchanged with a hundred others whose high ranking execs haven't heard of a couple of tiny liberal arts schools in Minnesota, no matter how highly regarded they are by U.S. News and World Reports.

Bringing up UPenn and Pepperdine doesn't help your argument at all, considering both have about a hundred times more name recognition than somewhere like Carleton.

You're kidding, right?

UPenn, yes....it's a HUGE school. But you think Pepperdine has more name recognition than Carleton?

Sorry, I was trying to engage you in a rational discussion. It's pretty clear you don't know your stuff when it comes to academia...

[srsmn]

Originally Posted by Pimpy

What does this even mean? That Chicago and Minneapolis are definitively "better" than most other cities by all objective measures? That is laughable. The presence of people like me and hundreds of others on this site alone who would be miserable living in either place is enough to prove such a blanket statement as yours logically invalid.

And did you ever consider that the "given criteria" that someone finds important varies from person to person, and that there's nothing wrong with that? What if someone's given criteria was warm, pleasant weather and attractive co-eds. Would you still cheerlead for Minneapolis or would you admit that it's inferior to places like Phoenix by that criteria?

But that's the problem: the OP's criteria wasn't warm, pleasant weather, or attractive coeds (the latter of which both MSP and Chicago have in spades, btw).

The only criteria the OP mentioned that was even close was weather/climate. That is a choice between suffering through Minnesota winters, or Arizona heat. Personally, I was going to give the edge to Phoenix on that one, too. But is weather my #1 criteria? Of course not. Economy (which was mentioned in the OP), arts (also mentioned) and transit (also mentioned) are criteria for me.....all of which MSP beats Phoenix in.

[roadwarrior101]

Originally Posted by srsmn

Personally, I was going to give the edge to Phoenix on that one, too. But is weather my #1 criteria? Of course not.

To each their own. Weather is a huge criteria for me. To be honest, Chicago is my favorite city in the US, but I would never live there, since I can't handle the winters. I lived in Phoenix for 2 years and did pretty well overall in the heat. It was about 2 months where it was brutal. When its in the low 100s there, its so dry, its actually pleasant and feels much better than a humid summer of the eastern half of the US. Yes, you get a few weeks in June/July/Aug where it gets 110+ and a little too warm, but I thought that 110+ in Phoenix still feels better than 90+ and humid back east.

But, I'm more of a fan of the western lifestyle of outdoors living, hiking, mountain biking, camping, etc.

[Min-Chi-Cbus]

Originally Posted by Pimpy

Wells Fargo was just a random example that could be interchanged with a hundred others whose high ranking execs haven't heard of a couple of tiny liberal arts schools in Minnesota, no matter how highly regarded they are by U.S. News and World Reports.

Bringing up UPenn and Pepperdine doesn't help your argument at all, considering both have about a hundred times more name recognition than somewhere like Carleton.

I get that, but you couldn't have used too many worse examples considering that Wells Fargo has such a huge presence in the Twin Cities. It actually makes you look uninformed.

And just like you said, UPenn and Pepperdine can be substituted for [name that small college here], yet you seem to miss the point entirely -- that name recognition (to the average American, apparently) is somehow more important than actual scholastics and reputation, which I disagree. Besides, hiring managers know which schools are the best, and even if they didn't, it wouldn't take more than a couple clicks of the mouse to find out more info about [name that small college here].

I appreciate your point of view but PLEASE don't pretend like you speak for all of us.....it's actually a fairly narrow-minded POV. Besides, have you ever been to Minneapolis? Have you lived there? I've been to Phoenix but haven't lived there, but at least I can provide my point of view based on some experiences as well as those from people that I know that HAVE lived there. Otherwise all I could really say about Phoenix was what I thought, not "knew".

[Min-Chi-Cbus]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

BTW, the MBA programs at ASU and UofM are both ranked #30 overall in US News and World Report. I don't see how this makes Minneapolis any better.

There are way more programs that schools offer than just an MBA, for one. Secondly, there are more "upper-tier" colleges in the Twin Cities (or at least that is the argument being made). Third, we seem to be completely ignoring K-12 schooling, which I'll argue is more important to an urban area and its culture/progression than colleges.....by far!

[JakeDog]

I know people that are very arts, entertainment oriented. For them MSP wins. In most "city/urban" categories it kills PHNX. But weather/outdoors are huge for some. PHNX weather is actually very very good. Yes, some months are very hot, but 8-10 months of the year are awesome. MSP is probably the opposite. Futher, PHNX is within reasonable driving distance of real mountains and amazing outdoors. For outdoor/weather types like myself, they are not even in the same universe.

[Min-Chi-Cbus]

Originally Posted by JakeDog

I know people that are very arts, entertainment oriented. For them MSP wins. In most "city/urban" categories it kills PHNX. But weather/outdoors are huge for some. PHNX weather is actually very very good. Yes, some months are very hot, but 8-10 months of the year are awesome. MSP is probably the opposite. Futher, PHNX is within reasonable driving distance of real mountains and amazing outdoors. For outdoor/weather types like myself, they are not even in the same universe.

Few people are going to debate that Minneapolis has better weather than Phoenix. I WOULD say, however, that Minneapolis has "ideal" weather 6-7 months of the year (temps between 60 and 85 degrees for highs), while using that same definition for Phoenix, it would have 6-7 months of ideal weather too, or a "tie".

Minneapolis doesn't have mountains but it has lots and lots of water, something that Phoenix simply doesn't have very much of (please don't argue with this....I know about Lake Havasu or whatever). It's also a very outdoorsy city, like Phoenix, but I'll also agree with you that Phoenix may be moreso. But I've been to both and experienced the outdoors for both, and I can tell you they are certainly in the same "universe".

I just don't think many people think of Minneapolis as a good city for the outdoors because a.) they know nothing about it and haven't been there, and b.) they think it's "too cold" to do activities outdoors. The opposite, in fact, is true.

[marothisu]

We aren't talking about overall. We are talking about Minneapolis MSA vs. Phoenix MSA here with education. UCLA, U of Texas, UNC chapel Hill...all great, but none are in these two MSAs, so the point is ...pointless.

Here, want some rankings. From US News ranking Graduate Programs (Best Graduate Schools | Top Graduate Programs | US News Education).

Below I have listed 56 categories US News ranked on. 40 of those 56 times (71.4% of the time), a Minneapolis area school is ranked higher than a Phoenix area school. 2 of those times (3.6% of the time), a Minneapolis school is tied with a Phoenix school in ranking. 14 of the 56 times (25% of the time), a Phoenix area school is ranked above a Minneapolis area school.

15 times does a Minneapolis area school show up in the top 10 of various rankings, while Phoenix area schools show up 5 times in the top 10. 54 times does a Minneapolis area school show up in the top 50 of various rankings, while Phoenix area schools show up 29 times.


SCIENCE
Biology
Minnesota - 32nd
Arizona State - 56th

Chemistry
Minnesota - 21st
Arizona State - 60th

Computer Science
Minnesota - 35th
Arizona State - 53rd

Earth Sciences
Arizona State - 17th
Minnesota - 28th

Mathematics
Minnesota - 18th
Arizona State - 63rd

Physics
Minnesota - 26th
Arizona State - 48th

Statistics
Minnesota - 18th
Arizona State - Out of the top 75

ENGINEERING
Engineering Overall
Minnesota: 28th
Arizona State: 43rd

Chemical Engineering
Minnesota - 4th

Aerospace Engineering
Minnesota - 11th

BUSINESS
Part-time MBA:
Minnesota (Carlson) - 9th
Arizona State (Carey) - 21st

Overall Business:
Minnesota (Carlson) - 30th
Arizona State (Carey) - 30th

EDUCATION
Overall Education
Minnesota - 26th
Arizona State - 26th

LAW
Overall Law
Minnesota - 19th
Arizona State - 26th

Part Time Law
Hamline University (St. Paul) - 35th
William Mitchell College of Law (St. Paul) - 60th
Phoenix School of Law - 75th

Dispute Resolution
Hamline University (Minneapolis) - 3rd

Healthcare Law
Minnesota - 10th

Legal Writing
Arizona State - 8th

MEDICAL
Primary Care
U of Minnesota - 8th
Midwestern University (Glendale, AZ) - 150-175th

Research
U of Minnesota - 39th
Midwestern University (Glendale, AZ) - 150-175th

Social Sciences and Humanities
Criminology
Arizona State - 12th

Economics
Minnesota - 10th
Arizona State - 39th

English
Minnesota - 35th
Arizona State - 58th

History
Minnesota - 24th
Arizona State - 71st

Political Science
Minnesota - 17th
Arizona State - 51st

Psychology
Minnesota - 8th
Arizona State - 36th
Capella University (Minneapolis) - 225-250
Walden University (Minneapolis) - 225-250
Northcentral University (Prescott Valley, AZ -- 90 miles from Phoenix) - 225-250

Sociology
Minnesota - 20th
Arizona State - 57th


HEALTH
Social Work
Minnesota - 33rd
Arizona State - 44th
St. Catherine University (St. Paul) - 52nd
Augsburg College (Minneapolis) - 104th

Physical Therapy
Minnesota - 19th
St. Catherine (Minneapolis) - 86th
A.T. Still University of Health Sciences (Mesa, AZ) - 138th

Speech Pathology
Minnesota - 17th
Arizona State - 21st

Audiology
Arizona State - 17th
Minnesota - 21st
A.T. Still University of Health Sciences (Mesa) - 64th

Clinical Psychology
Minnesota - 6th
Arizona State - 37th
Argosy University (Phoenix) - 175-200th
Argosy University (Eagan, MN) - 175-200th

Healthcare Management
Minnesota - 2nd
Arizona State - 25th
University of St. Thomas (Minneapolis) - 61st

Nursing
Arizona State - 19th
Minnesota - 21st
Augsburg College (Minneapolis) - 127th
College of St. Catherine (St. Paul) - 166th
Bethel University (St. Paul) - 265th
Metropolitan State University (Minneapolis) - 425th
Grand Canyon University (Phoenix) - 435th
University of Phoenix - 475-500th

Anesthesia
Minneapolis School of Anesthesia (St. Louis Park) - 32nd
St. Mary's University of Minnesota (Minneapolis) - 41st
Minnesota - 48th
Minneapolis VA School of Anesthesia -63rd
Midwestern University (Glendale, AZ) - 125ish

Nursing-Midwifery
Minnesota - 8th

Occupational Therapy
St. Catherine University (St. Paul) - 28th
Minnesota - 31st
Midwestern University (Glendale, AZ) - 83rd
A.T. Still University of Health Sciences (Mesa) - 116th

Pharmacy
Minnesota - 3rd
Midwestern University (Glendale, AZ) - 77th

Physical Therapy
Minnesota - 19th
St. Catherine University (Minneapolis) - 86th
A.T. Still University of Health Sciences (Mesa) - 138th

Physician Assistant
Midwestern University (Glendale, AZ) - 22nd
Arizona School of Health Sciences (Mesa) - 43rd
Augsburg College (Minneapolis) - 70th

Public Health
Minnesota - 8th

Vet Med
Minnesota - 9th


PUBLIC AFFAIRS
Overall
Minnesota - 16th
Arizona State - 16th
Hamline University (St. Paul) - 149th
University of Phoenix - 250-275th
Walden University (Minneapolis) - 275-300th

Public Policy Analysis
Minnesota - 17th

Non-Profit Management
Minnesota - 3rd
Arizona State - 15th

Public Finance and Budgeting
Arizona State - 16th

City Management and Urban Policy
Arizona State - 2nd
Minnesota - 19th

Environmental Policy and Management
Arizona State - 10th

Health Policy and Management
Minnesota - 12th

Public Management Administration
Arizona State - 19th
Minnesota - 21st

Social Policy
Minnesota - 14th

FINE ARTS
Overall
Arizona State - 22nd
Minneapolis College of Art and Design - 36th
Minnesota - 45th

Graphic Design
Minneapolis College of Art and Design - 14th

Photography
Arizona State - 11th

Ceramics
Arizona State - 7th
Minnesota - 16th

Printmaking
Arizona State - 5th
Minnesota - 21st



Let's not forget that U of Arizona is often ranked above Arizona State in many areas, but even then it's usually not above U of Minnesota for a lot. Minneapolis also has St. Cloud State, Carleton College, St. Olaf, College of St. Scholastica not far away. There is also the Mayo Clinic main campus & headquarters in Rochester, 75 miles away, which is ranked as the #3 hospital in the US behind Mass General and Johns Hopkins and is ranked as one of the top medical schools in the country too.


Sorry, but Phoenix area overall is nowhere near the Minneapolis area even in secondary education. This isn't counting primary education which Minnesota is usually ranked as one of the top in the nation and usually ahead of Arizona. Arizona State is a great institution, but for most things, it is ranked behind Minnesota. Most people in the world have no idea how good of an institution U of Minnesota actually is.