Pittsburgh and Cleveland (place, life, quality, ranking)

[Hopes]

As of February 2012, this interactive migration map shows a greater inbound migration into Cuyahoga County.

22.4k outbound and 44.8k inbound.

American Migration [Interactive Map] - Forbes

That means the decline in population has to be birth and death rates.

The bright side for Columbus is people are clearly moving there.

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by speagles84

While this is all true, Pittsburgh has many other areas within the city that still have very affordable areas and safe (West End neighborhoods, South Hills < Meaning South of 51.) Plus, to my knowledge Cleveland's city neighborhoods are very dangerous compared to a lot of Pittsburgh's neighborhoods.

It's my understanding that Cleveland was very hard hit with foreclosures where Pittsburgh wasn't. If you stay out of the trendiest neighborhoods, there are many safe affordable neighborhoods in Pittsburgh and its close-in suburbs. I don't mean dirt-cheap under $50k, but homes from $75k to well under $200k that would be affordable to many dual income families. The median home sale price for existing homes in the US is a little under $200k. In Pittsburgh that still buys you a big nice house in all but the best neighborhoods. You can still get a decent home in a safe neighborhood here for well under $200k.

[JoeP]

Housing in Pgh is relatively unique in that a significant portion is pre war working class and a lot of the post war housing is 40s-60s... so between that and decades of stagnation, prices are lower, but more current home styles (open floor plans, master suite bathrooms etc) are more limited.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by pman

why is detroit the only city that can fail? buffalo is extremely depressed as well even if its not as crime ridden as cleveland or detroit. cleveland certainly part of the rust belt.

Personally, I think Cleveland makes Buffalo look like paradise on Earth.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by Joe Magarac

Long story short, thanks in part to its poor freeway system and its charitable and educational legacy, Pittsburgh - especially in the East End - kept a network of neighborhoods that are walkable, relatively safe, full of places to go and things to do, and looked after by people who are "tied in" to their neighborhoods due to church, jobs, etc. That makes Pittsburgh desirable to people who want a city experience and not a suburban one - as many (though certainly not all) people under 30 today do.

A lot of Pittsburgh's East End neighborhoods feel more suburban than urban in character, and the distance from downtown makes them feel especially so. The exceptions would of course be Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, and Oakland. Cleveland has early 20th century four square neighborhoods just like those found in Pittsburgh's East End, and some of them are even nicer, except in Cleveland they are considered suburbs. The problem with Pittsburgh and Cleveland is that many of the truly urban neighborhoods, especially those walkable and connected to downtown, were leveled during the urban renewal era. Buffalo is unique in this aspect, because it retains desirable urban residential neighborhoods in the downtown area. Yes, we have the War Streets, but there's no cohesive urban fabric between that area and downtown. If only we still had the Lower Hill District, Bluff, lower North Shore, and Strip residential areas, Pittsburgh would feel much more urban and not like an island of skyscrapers surrounded by rings of suburbs, which incidentally is exactly what Cleveland and some Michigan cities feel like.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Housing prices in the Buffalo area have been rising steadily for at least a year now. I have been checking them a few times every year and you don't see that many decent fixer upper homes, let alone a crummy one that needs a lot of work for less than 20 grand these days. Cleveland still seems to have a ton of affordable houses even in some of the suburban communities. That may change in a few years if the positive news I've read about the area is true.

Yeah, houses in Buffalo are actually kind of pricey. I was surprised. You can find a few cheap houses, but definitely not in the desirable areas. Rent is cheap, though.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

Cleveland is more or less way too similiar to all the other cold, flat, Great Lakes cities. If that 'element' were what I like, than I'd have to also start researching Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, etc., and could even throw in a few others like Indianapolis, Columbus, etc. Even St. Louis or Kansas City could be thrown in.

To be fair, I think each of those cities is extremely unique. Yes, Great Lakes cities have street grids and are flatter, however the architectural and historical legacies of the cities can be much more varied. Buffalo doesn't look anything like Cleveland to me. Even Toledo and Cleveland are like night and day. Toledo has the old urban neighborhoods downtown (Vistula, etc.), whereas Cleveland is a lot of concrete. Buffalo is like a bigger version of Erie, which itself is very different and a bit more dense than Cleveland or Toledo. Architecturally, Detroit is a bit like Cleveland, but it's a bigger and more impressive city, even in its current state. Downtown Detroit has the feel of a great city, whereas downtown Cleveland feels much more mid size city. It's amazing to me how Youngstown has more character than Cleveland, even though it's a fraction of the size.

Oh, and St. Louis was more Pittsburgh-esque than probably any other city I have been to, save for Steubenville or Wheeling. Like Pittsburgh, it's an old Victorian river city, and the geography is hilly (not nearly as hilly as Pittsburgh, but not flat).

[that412]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

It's amazing to me how Youngstown has more character than Cleveland, even though it's a fraction of the size.

Would you be willing to elaborate on that comment? I've never gotten a good vibe out of Youngstown, whereas there are definitely areas in Cleveland where I can feel "character" at least starting to form.

Cleveland's Little Italy blows Bloomfield out of the water, Coventry is a great walkable area (though technically not in Cleveland proper), Tremont is wonderful, and the "Gordon Square" area in Detroit Shoreway is really coming along. Even Downtown, E 4th has done a very nice job as the anchor of an "entertainment district" that has grown to include the relatively new casino (which was retrofitted remarkably well, I thought, into older buildings). The North Shore here pales in comparison. W 6th is W 6th, maybe "character" isn't the right word to use there, but it's certainly vibrant (at night, anyway).

Cleveland certainly has a long way to go, but I've never felt anything remotely close to any of the examples I just listed in Youngstown. Though admittedly, I know Cleveland much, much better than I do Youngstown, which is why I'm curious to hear more of your own thoughts on this subject.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by that412

Would you be willing to elaborate on that comment? I've never gotten a good vibe out of Youngstown, whereas there are definitely areas in Cleveland where I can feel "character" at least starting to form.

Cleveland's Little Italy blows Bloomfield out of the water, Coventry is a great walkable area (though technically not in Cleveland proper), Tremont is wonderful, and the "Gordon Square" area in Detroit Shoreway is really coming along. Even Downtown, E 4th has done a very nice job as the anchor of an "entertainment district" that has grown to include the relatively new casino (which was retrofitted remarkably well, I thought, into older buildings). The North Shore here pales in comparison. W 6th is W 6th, maybe "character" isn't the right word to use there, but it's certainly vibrant (at night, anyway).

Cleveland certainly has a long way to go, but I've never felt anything remotely close to any of the examples I just listed in Youngstown. Though admittedly, I know Cleveland much, much better than I do Youngstown, which is why I'm curious to hear more of your own thoughts on this subject.

I think Cleveland's casino certainly blows ours out of the water, however I was underwhelmed by Cleveland's Little Italy and Tremont neighborhoods, which seemed about as vibrant as Pittsburgh's West End! Coventry reminded me of Squirrel Hill.

I think Youngstown has more character than Cleveland. Don't confuse character with vibrancy or things to do! I meant in terms of the visual interest of the city. I think the landscape and neighborhoods are more interesting to the eye. Cleveland's architecture is as flat as its geography.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Hopes

I'm not saying it's the only city that can fail. I'm saying that Detroit is so far behind that it's chances at recovery are much less than Cleveland's. I'm well aware that Cleveland is part of the rust belt but the crash of the steel industry has nothing to do with why Cleveland is losing population today. Cleveland was doing very well in the 90s. It was improving like Pittsburgh. The latest recession is what is causing Cleveland to decline, not the crash of the steel industry in the 1970s.

you cant base an economy on lebron.