Pittsburgh and Cleveland (versus, Boston, cons, difference)

[that412]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

I think Cleveland's casino certainly blows ours out of the water, however I was underwhelmed by Cleveland's Little Italy and Tremont neighborhoods, which seemed about as vibrant as Pittsburgh's West End! Coventry reminded me of Squirrel Hill.

I think Youngstown has more character than Cleveland. Don't confuse character with vibrancy or things to do! I meant in terms of the visual interest of the city. I think the landscape and neighborhoods are more interesting to the eye. Cleveland's architecture is as flat as its geography.

Okay, fair enough! I guess I was defining character more as the liveability and livelihood of the place. Semantics

Coventry definitely has the Squirrel Hill vibe to it, which is something I like.

I suppose Little Italy would not be considered necessarily vibrant, but its authenticity as an ethnic enclave is more impressive than anything we have here, IMO. I think of it more like Polish Hill, if Polish Hill actually had an active business district with practically all-Polish shops and restaurants. Bloomfield is a wonderful neighborhood (I happen to live there!), but it has grown far more diverse than just being a "Little Italy" anymore; when I said "blown out of the water," I was speaking solely in the context of the "Little Italy" moniker.

As for Tremont, I find it a close equivalent to Lawrenceville as a hip, artsy neighborhood with a burgeoning foodie hub and nightlife - though with the caveat that it's a little more spread out. There's the main grouping of stuff along Professor Ave but there's also a ton of other things sprinkled throughout the neighborhood, so I can kind of see where it might not have the same "vibrant" feeling as a more concentrated Main Street type set-up.

And, of course, I forgot about Ohio City!

[BHboston]

Originally Posted by Joe Magarac

1. A number of neighborhoods within Pittsburgh have kept their status as neighborhoods: i.e., they still have business districts, active churches, community groups, etc. Cleveland's downtown saw a lot of public investment in the 1990s, which made it arguably nicer than Pittsburgh's downtown and caused people to think that Cleveland was "back" or at least holding serve. But outside of its downtown, Cleveland is by and large a wasteland: in the 1970s, the former residents fled so completely that these areas are no longer attractive to members of the middle or upper-middle classes because, with the exception of low house prices, there's nothing left to attract them. In contrast, Pittsburgh has quite a few middle and upper-middle class neighborhoods to which people can and do move because they want a "city neighborhood" and the walkability that it implies.

I think this hits the nail on the head. As someone who is relatively familiar with Cleveland, I can say that the "desirable" urban neighborhoods within the city proper are few, far between, small, and not even all that great when compared to neighborhoods in other cities. A lot of areas that offered a dense urban environment 50-100 years ago have been almost completely hollowed out, knocked down, and paved over. See the density maps on this site comparing 1950 to 2010: http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/trends/2011/0811/02regact.cfm

Most neighborhoods in Cleveland offer frame housing that is similar to or even less attractive than what can be found in the inner-ring suburbs. In addition, the city neighborhoods are considerably more scraggly-looking and less safe than said inner-ring suburbs. Thus I get the sense that more people who are looking for a semi-urban experience in Cleveland will choose older suburbs like Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, etc. Living outside city limits carries the additional benefit of not having to rely on Cleveland schools or city services.

Pittsburgh, on the other hand, (and as the quoted post mentions above) has so many viable city neighborhoods that it is easy to see why people would want to live there.

All of this is to say that I can easily see Pittsburgh surpassing Cleveland in population in the next few decades. Even if Pittsburgh's population growth is small, Cleveland is still bleeding from its outer neighborhoods with no end in sight and these neighborhoods seem to have few realistic prospects for revitalization.

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

I think Cleveland's casino certainly blows ours out of the water, however I was underwhelmed by Cleveland's Little Italy and Tremont neighborhoods, which seemed about as vibrant as Pittsburgh's West End! Coventry reminded me of Squirrel Hill.

I think Youngstown has more character than Cleveland. Don't confuse character with vibrancy or things to do! I meant in terms of the visual interest of the city. I think the landscape and neighborhoods are more interesting to the eye. Cleveland's architecture is as flat as its geography.

Did you have a chance to visit the area near the West Side market when you were there? This area I believe is called Ohio City and appears to be getting better.

[PreservationPioneer]

Yes, I used to date someone in Cleveland (that was fun - not) and was able to explore much of the city. Ohio City was actually the most historic neighborhood I could find. I was looking for Cleveland's Victorian neighborhoods, but I don't think they really exist. Most cities have their grand Victorian or even mid 19th century districts, even Flint for god sakes (Carriage Town). Granted, I don't believe Youngstown has a surviving Victorian neighborhood, but there is still something about that city I like.

I think my main complaint with Cleveland is that it is severely lacking in charm. Buffalo, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Baltimore, and Philly have charm and ambience.

[Katarina Witt]

Case Western is actually ranked higher than Pitt. Just sayin'. Pitt is my alma mater.
National University Rankings | Top National Universities | US News Best Colleges

[chessgeek]

I think it is a no brainer that Pittsburgh has an overall better quality of life than Cleveland and has improved the most with better future prospects. You also don't have to drive to Columbus to see a pro hockey game.

[chessgeek]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

Yes, I used to date someone in Cleveland (that was fun - not) and was able to explore much of the city. Ohio City was actually the most historic neighborhood I could find. I was looking for Cleveland's Victorian neighborhoods, but I don't think they really exist. Most cities have their grand Victorian or even mid 19th century districts, even Flint for god sakes (Carriage Town). Granted, I don't believe Youngstown has a surviving Victorian neighborhood, but there is still something about that city I like.

I think my main complaint with Cleveland is that it is severely lacking in charm. Buffalo, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Baltimore, and Philly have charm and ambience.

Buffalo has charm? I've never heard that until now.

[PreservationPioneer]

Originally Posted by chessgeek

Buffalo has charm? I've never heard that until now.

Ten years ago, people would have scoffed at the idea of Pittsburgh having charm, too.

Seriously, walk around the West Village or Allentown neighborhoods if you don't believe me.

[Lobick]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Case Western is actually ranked higher than Pitt. Just sayin'. Pitt is my alma mater.
National University Rankings | Top National Universities | US News Best Colleges

yeah...but it's much smaller so it doesn't have nearly the same impact on its city.

Case's better comparision is CMU and Cleveland doesn't have a Pitt equivalent (large research institution, huge endowment)

Pittsburgh is fortuate that the two institutions are located next to one another and seem to have a bit of a symbiotic relatioship.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

Ten years ago, people would have scoffed at the idea of Pittsburgh having charm, too.

Seriously, walk around the West Village or Allentown neighborhoods if you don't believe me.

Buffalo's Elmwood neighborhood is not all that bad either. I lived there for a while in 2005.

I like Buffalo. Some decent restaurants there, a lack of traffic and the proximity to Canada along with some excellent rural areas for recreation in NY and PA make it an appealing place to live.