Washington DC and Baltimore in the 21 century: Northeastern or Southern? (America, bigger)
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Actually DC did had ethnic European enclaves. I've explained this countless times on C-D along with some provided research Eye dug up but apparently people are too quick to forget.
But nothing to the extent of what you see in Philly, NYC, and Boston and there's very little to none of that sort of influence remaining in the city comparatively speaking.
And what's with the use of "Eye" instead of "I"?
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And there is a large amount of SFHs in DC but there's an even larger amount of rowhouses which is characteristic of the Northeast, and it's actually more of a rowhouse city by nature than Boston honestly. What's ATL's and Birmingham's excuse? Some of those SFH-dominated neighborhoods in DC that you speak of also look similar to the ones up in Baltimore and Philly too. It's often a mix of bungalows, semi-detached twin homes, brick or stone row homes, apartment buildings, duplexes, ranchers, cottages, Tudors, mansions, new construction row homes, contemporary town homes, some McMansions, and even the occasional triple decker. ATL and Birmingham have some of these but definitely not all of them. The only city in the South whose SFH neighborhoods have the aforementioned overall variety of homes that DC has is Richmond. You'll find similar SFH neighborhoods with the overall housing styles DC has up in Baltimore (especially the Northwest and Northeast parts of the city), Philadelphia (Northwest, Lower & Upper Northeast), and NYC (mostly some parts of Queens, Staten Island, and northern Bronx). STL and Chicago have similar SFH neighborhoods too.
Actually Savannah has a comparable variety of housing style as well, included lots of different types of rowhouses. But what gives many (though not all) of DC's SFH-dominated neighborhoods a distinctly Southern flair isn't so much the architecture as it is the demographics, with several being predominantly Black and DC's Black population exhibits more Southern influences than those of cities north of it (Baltimore is probably the exception here).
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Not that Eye care for organized religion but there's always been a good number of Catholics living in DC along with Baptists and Methodists.
DC is more Catholic and less evangelical than cities to the south but less Catholic and more evangelical than cities to the north. This seems to be a function of the city not having a substantial legacy as a city with European ethnic enclaves, particularly the Italian and Irish, and its post-war growth and development, having attracted lots of different people from various regions and internationally.
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DC has some industrial areas (of course ppl don't know better) in parts of Northeast and Southeast but obviously it's not like the cities to our north or even Richmond for that matter. A good number of neighborhoods in Northeast, Southeast, and parts of Northwest do offer a certain level of grit but it's not as "out there" as say Baltimore or Philly.
Every city has industrial areas; those are necessary for a functioning city. But DC has no history of heavy industry so it last a distinctly post-industrial vibe you get in other Northeastern cities. This is why downtown feels so sanitized and, as I remarked once before in another thread, why downtown DC puts me in the mind of a structurally denser, stubbier version of Uptown Charlotte.
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It's not Northeastern in every way but it's not Southern in any other way either. Eye agree, it's definitely the epitome of a Mid-Atlantic metropolis.
To me, they both much more resemble Northeastern cities than they do Southern cities.
Philadelphia is definitely a city that people would consider Northeastern, and Baltimore resembles Philadelphia much more closely than any city I've seen of the south. DC does so to some extent as well. In terms of how the cities and metropolitan areas are built, DC and Baltimore resemble more the major cities of the Northeastern seaboard than they do those of the South. In terms of dialect (word choices and the like), DC and Baltimore now also resemble the Northeast more than the South (DC largely thanks to the continued growth of people transplanted from the Northeast). In terms of infrastructure connections, DC and Baltimore are much more connected to the Northeastern seaboard.
Philadelphia is definitely a city that people would consider Northeastern, and Baltimore resembles Philadelphia much more closely than any city I've seen of the south. DC does so to some extent as well.
Lol so because they have a lot of restaurants that focus on southern cuisine they are just like every other quintessential southern city? Lol what a thick use of logic. I can name more than just 25 places that specialize in Italian food in the county my parents live in the middle of Florida. That means it must be just like NYC and the Jersey Shore then. Ha Ha. Maybe I should also look for 25 places in just any place that specialize in Mexican food. Then they will all be the same as LA or San Antonio...
So DC's architecture that often look like Brownstone Brooklyn "seem southern" to you? And so does it's climate that is much more similar to NYC and Philly then to say a Houston or New Orleans?
I didnt say that DC and its cuisine was anything any like other quintessential southern cities, but there are probably 10 restaurants walking distance from where I work that are southern, there is kudzu all along the Potomac River on the Capital Crescent Trail where I jog, stuff like bourbon and whiskey bars with southern food are right near our neighborhood. I just dont see the northeastern influence?
The whole city's beginnings was chosen as a southern location to placate the southern states and all those southern aristocrats over the debts incurred in the revolutionary war by the north and it was named after the one of the most famous southerners, close to his mount vernon home, Washington DC? the row house/terraced houses/townhouses houses were english in nature and were a part of america in the south as well from the beginning alexandria, savannah, new orleans, norfolk, richmond, charleston all have row homes .
My dad was born in georgetown and my grandparent grew up around here and they always said it was just a quiet southern city but this thread is about 21st century so who knows and maybe you are right, maybe young urban people identify with urban north ? if people want to see themselves and DC as more like urban north eastern cities like nyc, wilmington,buffalo,newark,detroit, philly, camden, etc, I guess, but DC is nothing like those cities, Dc is a district basically, the traffic wouldnt be this awful if maryland and virginia worked with DC on solving it. No skyscrapers in DC like NYC.
DC is very transient, and I bet alot of people moving here never heard of chuck brown or what go go music is, chuck was from north carolina. Read the history of Duke ellington ,jelly roll morton, all the jazz and blues and bluegrass like seldom scene, great music and the great nightclubs the pre and post war 20th century, all of it was very southern. Maybe in the 21st century rap and mtv has replaced jazz and blues and blugrass and everything and rap and mtv are considered more northeastern, I dont know
The history of DC was very southern for most of its history but the traffic is definitely more like a northeastern city and you may be right that maybe alot of younger people identify with the urban north , I dont know, but it seems like it still has pretty polite culture in alot of places and the climate in DC is Humid Subtropical Climate, though it does get alot colder than say,NC. It is never like the snow you see in boston, buffalo and alot of the northeast. Its not a snow culture and its definitely one of the most humid places I have ever been to.
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Last edited by floridanative10; 09-04-2015 at 06:37 PM..
There is a belief that African Americans all over country are "southern" or at least "sound southern" anyways. I can see where the view comes from, but it's pretty bigoted, even in the south to an extent.
Amen. African Americans who are actually FROM the South will quickly tell you that that's BS, and that black folks from NY and Cali are nothing like Southern blacks accent wise or culturally, but some bigots like to think and say otherwise.
But nothing to the extent of what you see in Philly, NYC, and Boston and there's very little to none of that sort of influence remaining in the city comparatively speaking.
And what's with the use of "Eye" instead of "I"?
Eye don't recall ever saying anything about them being on the level of the cities to our north either. But hardly any city in the South can say as such except for maybe New Orleans (and Miami if you wanna get technical).
Eye of Heru.
Actually Savannah has a comparable variety of housing style as well, included lots of different types of rowhouses. But what gives many (though not all) of DC's SFH-dominated neighborhoods a distinctly Southern flair isn't so much the architecture as it is the demographics, with several being predominantly Black and DC's Black population exhibits more Southern influences than those of cities north of it (Baltimore is probably the exception here).
The Southern influence is there, Eye haven't denied that. But people shouldn't expect it to be like ATL or Birmingham or even Charlotte. It is pretty ironic that Black Baltimoreans have a tendency to exhibit more Southernisms in their speech and attitude (sometimes). You'll see some Southernisms being exhibited in Black Philadelphians and Delawareans as well but they're not gonna be as visible as Black Washingtonians, Marylanders, and Baltimoreans. Black New Yorkers, New Englanders, and Jerseyians are probably the only Blacks on the East Coast who hardly have a noticeable Southern influence IMO.
DC is more Catholic and less evangelical than cities to the south but less Catholic and more evangelical than cities to the north. This seems to be a function of the city not having a substantial legacy as a city with European ethnic enclaves, particularly the Italian and Irish, and its post-war growth and development, having attracted lots of different people from various regions and internationally.
It's evolution as a city has definitely played a role into the Catholic presence in keeping it at the medium. Not as high as say New York or Baltimore but more significant than most Southern cities except for New Orleans and maybe Mobile. Doesn't Savannah have a Catholic past?
Every city has industrial areas; those are necessary for a functioning city. But DC has no history of heavy industry so it last a distinctly post-industrial vibe you get in other Northeastern cities. This is why downtown feels so sanitized and, as I remarked once before in another thread, why downtown DC puts me in the mind of a structurally denser, stubbier version of Uptown Charlotte.
You certainly aren't gonna find giant smokestacks and steel mills in DC but of course, there are refineries, power stations, waste treatment plants (Blue Plains is one of them), railyard stations, old dock installations along the waterfront in Navy Yard and Southwest, storage buildings and warehouses, distribution centers, etc., etc., etc. It's more light to medium industry than the heavy industry that you'll often see in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Newark, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Detroit, etc. As for Downtown DC, Eye haven't been to Charlotte so Eye can't approve or disapprove of what you said. Relative to most downtowns on the East Coast, it is relatively cleaner than many of them. Even DC's Chinatown isn't as grimy as the one up in Philly but Eye didn't find the Philly Chinatown to be uncomfortably dirty or anything.
To me, a good part of DC do look reminiscent of Philly, particularly some of the neighborhoods in Northeast and Northwest. Architecturally, it's like mix between Philly, Richmond, and a touch of Brooklyn. What makes DC more distinct is its street grid and the width of its streets (Baltimore is like this for the most part too). DC is a more airy and open city but not as intimate looking as Philly, Boston, or Savannah.
To me, they both much more resemble Northeastern cities than they do Southern cities.
Philadelphia is definitely a city that people would consider Northeastern, and Baltimore resembles Philadelphia much more closely than any city I've seen of the south. DC does so to some extent as well. In terms of how the cities and metropolitan areas are built, DC and Baltimore resemble more the major cities of the Northeastern seaboard than they do those of the South. In terms of dialect (word choices and the like), DC and Baltimore now also resemble the Northeast more than the South (DC largely thanks to the continued growth of people transplanted from the Northeast). In terms of infrastructure connections, DC and Baltimore are much more connected to the Northeastern seaboard.
We've always talked the way we talk in the DC area even in spite of transplants from the Northeast. There's also a good number of transplants from out West and the South as well. Eye feel like the largest number of transplants around here be from Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Virginia (outside NoVa), Georgia, California, Delaware, New York, Florida, South Carolina, Tennessee, etc. Eye think Baltimore has a larger pool of Northeast transplants, especially people from NYC, Jersey, Long Island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. There actually was a chart on here touching on this in another thread several months ago Eye believe.
DC still has a great connection to that great culture that came from the south, the new orleans jazz/southern blues and country gospel culture , DC gave the world great blues and jazz artists like Duke Ellington, jelly roll morton was a huge presence here. We have some of the country's greatest jazz clubs around the district. There is the amazing Jazz/southern brunch at Georgia Browns, bohemian caverns is one of the premier clubs in the whole country for Jazz. DC hasnt been dominated by mtv/tmz culture and the whole celebrity Manhattan/Hollywood media like so much of the country has been. Blues and bluegrass clubs like madams organ and gypsy sallys, rock clubs like like 9:30. Irregardless of all the gentrification and homogenization , DC has a vibrant music and food and bar culture here. One of the best music scenes in the country in my opinion
Responses in bold. The Southern influence is there, Eye haven't denied that. But people shouldn't expect it to be like ATL or Birmingham or even Charlotte. It is pretty ironic that Black Baltimoreans have a tendency to exhibit more Southernisms in their speech and attitude (sometimes). You'll see some Southernisms being exhibited in Black Philadelphians and Delawareans as well but they're not gonna be as visible as Black Washingtonians, Marylanders, and Baltimoreans. Black New Yorkers, New Englanders, and Jerseyians are probably the only Blacks on the East Coast who hardly have a noticeable Southern influence IMO.
It's evolution as a city has definitely played a role into the Catholic presence in keeping it at the medium. Not as high as say New York or Baltimore but more significant than most Southern cities except for New Orleans and maybe Mobile. Doesn't Savannah have a Catholic past?
You certainly aren't gonna find giant smokestacks and steel mills in DC but of course, there are refineries, power stations, waste treatment plants (Blue Plains is one of them), railyard stations, old dock installations along the waterfront in Navy Yard and Southwest, storage buildings and warehouses, distribution centers, etc., etc., etc. It's more light to medium industry than the heavy industry that you'll often see in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Newark, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Detroit, etc. As for Downtown DC, Eye haven't been to Charlotte so Eye can't approve or disapprove of what you said. Relative to most downtowns on the East Coast, it is relatively cleaner than many of them. Even DC's Chinatown isn't as grimy as the one up in Philly but Eye didn't find the Philly Chinatown to be uncomfortably dirty or anything.
Excellent points man.
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