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Cleveland and especially Pittsburgh don't have sizable immigrant populations though. That's the thing.
It probably would help if I put some numbers to it. Below are the immigrant populations by metro area as of 2013. The percentages next to the numbers represent the percent of the whole population that the immigrants represent. Ill only list the cities discussed on this thread:
Nearly half of immigrants to the U.S. are college educated. So there are plenty of immigrant professionals of all types.
I don't know the % of immigrant goat herders, but I think it's fair to say it's a small number, irrelevant to the larger conversation. Don't think too many goat herders are immigrating to, say, Ohio, but I'm confident professionals of many types are immigrating in decent numbers.
Again, immigrants aren't "goatherders". That sounds like some Trump soundbite.
They're generally professionals or skilled trades.
I'm referring specifically to relocated Hmong and Somali refugee populations in Minneapolis, not immigrants as a whole. Context is everything. There's a big difference between the immigrant population in Atlanta or DC and the one in, say, El Paso.
Now, we can beat stats to death all we want, but ultimately, sometimes you have to look at things based on feel. This is an honest question. Let's say you didn't know anything about stats, or didn't do any research, or anything, but first visited Cleveland, Pittsburgh and St. Louis. Then, you visited Mineapolis (and let's also say Detroit). Then, to finish off, you visited Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami. Regardless of other factors that you, the average joe, didn't research before or after, which tier would you be more likely to group Detroit and Minneapolis with: Cities like Cleveland, St. Louis and Pittsburgh? Or, cities like Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami.
Two observations: first (especially when it comes to stats), why have so many forum-members devoted so much attention to immigration, while completely ignoring global business? Second, why do so many forum-members continue to involve Chicago, Detroit, or Minneapolis in this debate? Doing so simply derails the entire thread, as do extended references to any other city besides the Midwestern cities of this poll.
Well I think the problem here, is that some are using GDP and some of these other metrics as measures for "better" or "worse", when really there's so, so much more that goes into that, and it's ultimately subjective anyways. There are many reasons one would prefer, or rank CLE, STL or PIT ahead of Minneapolis, regardless of what GDP stats/etc. say, just as there are many valid reasons one would rank/prefer Minneapolis over those cities. That's where the comment about post 117 came from. Even Chicago has its share of issues that the other cities in the list don't have to deal with..
I'm going to interject right here with the bolded part. I think you maybe confused on what my thread is about, unfortunately. I kind of want to get it back to its foundational roots though.
I already gave an outline of what I want discussed and each of those factors are measurable with objective statistics or information and those statistics and information are readily available via the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the United States Census Bureau, and the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Department of Homeland Security, and other government entities OR verifiably reputable third party sources.
To clarify, my thread is not about places people "prefer". I rarely make subjective threads about where people rather prefer or would rather live; given that there is 7.3 billion people on the planet and just about everyone has their own custom "I prefers" and "I would rather live ins". I want some information though, statistics, and an intellectual debate that we can cross check and verify with aforementioned statistics.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or hostile, and in advance, don't want you to take it that way. I just want to clarify that you're misinterpreting the basis of my thread. I want statistics and information, I want arguments that I can double-check and they check out with reality. Basically I want people to say things they can prove.If you make a post without statistics or information, then I hope it is an assessment that is based on 100% bullet proof fact, as in if we Google check, what is being said wont be falsity but rather an actual depiction of reality.
Here are the frameworks to my thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John
Criteria:
- Diverse (racial diversity and ethnic diversity)
- Global (pertaining to business and commerce, a global economic driver, global industries, global innovations, global research, global institutions of higher learning or research)
- International (culturally, socially, or politically has some clout, brand, or image outside of the United States; a public figure with global reach, an event with global attendance or viewership, an institution with global recognition, a team or club with global following, ability to draw immigrants and tourists from overseas, so on and so forth)
- Cosmopolitan (a population that seemingly is knitted together from everywhere; elsewhere from the same state, elsewhere from the same region, elsewhere from the same country, elsewhere from the same continent, elsewhere from the same planet, there are "strong" social network or cultural aspects that tie the population of the city together with the rest of the world via travel, sister cities, ethnic enclaves, innovation of fusion foods from the world on over, general populace is well aware of the world outside of the United States, demonstrates knowledgeable instincts, travelers, live-and-let-live vibe, higher culture, sophistication)
I encourage all participants to please stay with the guidelines of the thread. There is no "I prefer" or "people would rather live in" here. We're weeding out subjectivity in favor of statistics and objective data to make our cases in this thread. I really want it to stay that way too.
All of the things I asked for, while numerous, are all measurable with data and information. I'm looking forward to that and not "I prefer" or "I would rather live in" answers such as those are incorrect to the thread premise upon arrival.
Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 06-02-2016 at 04:41 PM..
That makes sense in terms of what you're looking for. I do think that other things can be measured though, like miles of rail, park acreage, proximity and topography, quality of cultural institutions. But at the same time I definitely see what you're saying, and under the categories you described, no question, Minneapolis, Detroit and Chicago are certainly the big 3. Whether those two are in a separate tier entirely however depends on how many tiers we are creating. Other than disagreement about where exactly we put Minneapolis tier wise, do you disagree with my other tiers in post 141? As a whole I feel like that was pretty objective and data supported. I would say for CSA itself, a city should have at least 300B GDP to be tier 2, and 100B to be tier 3. That's the metrics I used largely for creating that list and I didn't mean any disrespect either.
What other things can we talk about regarding said cities? I think we've thoroughly established that CLE and STL are running about even.. Perhaps cut off point between Tier 3 and Tier 4?
That makes sense in terms of what you're looking for. I do think that other things can be measured though, like miles of rail, park acreage, proximity and topography, quality of cultural institutions.
I think these aspects can be measured as well, I have cultural institutions under international aspects. Some performing and visual arts groups, for example, receive globally acclaimed awards usually from a panel of experts that are called upon judging them annually. Plus we can measure their popularity with visitors numbers that are accessible, their operating budgets to show how much each institution regularly invests, or historical impact (things performing arts groups or cultural institutions have achieved and are well documented (like being the first at something, like being the only at something, like having the largest collection of something, like being a dedicated showpiece to someone's life or something like that)). For example, the Teatro San Cassiano in Venice was the world's first opera house. I personally do credit Venice for being the birthplace for modern opera and I credit Vienna for popularizing the use of opera houses, as Vienna quickly afterwards became the center of the world for musical composers at that time period.
Anything that works towards global competition is a plus for the argument in this comparison.
Of course parks are welcome as well. City parks have lots going for them, some even have cultural institutions or castles with renown architecture and zoos or stuff like that. Even beyond that, city parks display the character of a city. You see sampls of trees that grow in the region, the way the city builds around the park, how it relates to public transit, how amphitheaters and activities and events make urban city parks the centers to be in on any given weekend. Things like that.
I would, however, argue that topography doesn't do anything for cosmopolitanism, internationalism, diversity, or globalism though. Talk about anything that you legitimately feel would thoroughly fit under one of the four branches; diversity or internationalism or globalism or cosmopolitanism. Anything that fits under them. Culinary innovations. Cultural trends like clothing invented in an area. Lingo and speech, like phrases and words popularized in a place that now has global reach. Stuff like this. Stuff that can spill over across national borders and shows the world that this place deserves being on a global map and not just a national one. Stuff like that.
Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 06-02-2016 at 05:32 PM..
This is obviously subjective, just my personal thought. By no means do I mean for these tiers below to be taken seriously or as fact. The tiers with multiple cities, the cities are in no particular order at all.
Tier One:
- New York
Tier Two:
- Los Angeles
Tier Three:
- Chicago
- Toronto
- Washington D.C.
- San Francisco Bay Area
Tier Four:
- Boston
- Houston
- Dallas
- Miami
- Atlanta
- Philadelphia
- Montreal
Tier Five:
- Vancouver
- Seattle
- Detroit
Tier Six:
- Denver
- Minneapolis
- Phoenix
- San Diego
- Portland
Tier Seven:
- Ottawa
- Calgary
- Cleveland
- Las Vegas
- Orlando
- Tampa
- Edmonton
- Saint Louis
- Baltimore
- Pittsburgh
- Austin
- Charlotte
- Raleigh
- Salt Lake City
- San Antonio
- Sacramento
I could keep going with the tiers to finish out all of the other PCSAs over 1 million in the United States and areas over 1 million in Canada but I think this should be pretty alright.
New York deserves its own tier. Without New York, America falls into the territory of second rate world power. Los Angeles also gets its own tier, to emphasize that it is under New York but should be respected as a city that is ahead of the next tier by a lot. To be a peer of New York, you also have to be a peer of Paris, London, and Tokyo. I don't think Los Angeles is a peer of those cities but is in the tier that comes just right after them.
The next tier with Chicago consists of the next overall most complete cities. You look at these cities and not only do they have the demographical works to be there but also the global connections, size, and power. The American ones in this tier all have economies that dwarf $600 Billion, that is big time, practically all of them have Top 10-15 global economies by size, larger than 90% of the world's countries. The Canadian city in this tier is the premier city of its country, the driving force economically of its country. These cities are gateway markets to the world, just look at their airports and look at where they go. They open new dimensions with their connections. These cities are well beyond all cities in every tier beneath them for sure.
Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 06-02-2016 at 07:17 PM..
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