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There used to be trout in the South Platte, back in the day. I'm talking 30 years ago. I may be misremembering, but I think there was a brown trout fishery. But yeah, Denver doesn't cut it for me. Even when I lived in Boulder, I didn't go to the mountains as much as I would have liked. But Nederland, that was different. You live where you live. Denver claiming the mountains is like Orlando claiming the beach. They're close, no doubt, just far enough away you don't want to make the drive most days.
In Denver even the anthills are 5,281' peaks. Kinda takes the wind out of any mountain's height in terms of prominence.
Which ones? You should really familiarize yourself with Pittsburgh. Or say look at an aerial photo before trying to debate this stuff?
Portland is another. You can walk from Downtown Portland to Forest Park, which is part of a forest that's probably 1-1.5 miles wide and 10 miles long within the developed city area.
I don't get all the fawning over Pittsburgh's downtown. I think it's overrated. Yeah, there are some neat new skyscrapers, some cool old buildings and all is made a bit more impressive by the tight configuration and narrow streets. Overall, though, it just feels old and a bit tired... Comparatively there's not a ton of nightlife--it seems considerably deader than Cleveland's in the evening, esp on weekends. Penn Street has been developed into a nice restaurant area. I like it there. Market Square is, well, interesting, but for whatever reason it doesn't do much for me. It's Pittsburgh's answer to Cleveland's E. 4th, but I like E. 4th better. There are still not that many people living downtown -- yeah, I'm sure its numbers are pumped up by roping in North Side, but to me, downtown should be the Golden Triangle and, perhaps, the stadium area, but no more.
Denver is new and shiny. It's downtown has a lot of retail and is growing by leaps and bounds, particularly the TOD stuff in/around Union Station on the north end. But it lacks character; doesn't have the architecture of downtown Pittsburgh or Cleveland, and Cleveland nudges Pittsburgh with such beauties as the Arcade, Public Library, Federal Reserve, the old/new Heinen's supermarket and Tower City, to name a few. Aside from downtown Denver's trendy warehouse district adjacent to the Union Station transit hub (and what city doesn't have a warehouse district?), there's not a lot of old, classic architecture downtown.
Denver deserves major props for its aggressive approach to transit fueling an explosive growth in rapid transit for a medium-sized metro area. It blows both Cleveland and Pittsburgh away in terms of the sheer size of the new rail network ... and it's growing. It's brand new -- the first branch isn't even 25 years old IIRC (too lazy to research), and it's chasing sprawl that was allowed to fester in the auto age, as Denver is mainly a post World War II metropolis, unlike Cleveland and Pittsburgh which are old Industrial Age cities -- with Pittsburgh actually having Colonial roots.
In terms of Neighborhoods, Pittsburgh wins: it has denser housing certain areas, and strong commercial districts like East Liberty, Shadyside and Squirrel Hill-- and a few more walking neighborhoods than Cleveland. And Pittsburgh, like Cleveland, is aggressively beefing up its already-strong neighborhoods with several very large-scale mixed use apt/condo projects -- even more so than Cleveland, which has come on strong with these in the last 5-7 years.
Denver lacks the established culture and the institutions of Pittsburgh or Cleveland -- again, Devner's a new city. It's housing is bland -- often 1-floor, ranch style houses on large lots, which leads to the city's light density and overall freeway, car orientation. There are few really walkable neighborhoods in Denver, most are clustered near the capitol building (in Capitol Hill) along Colfax avenue and south of there -- ironically, neighborhoods Devner's giant new rail network doesn't even touch. Hopefully rail will foster the growth of such areas near train stations. Suburban Old Town Arvada next to a soon-to-open commuter rail line station is one of the few walkable areas Denver's huge rail network takes you to. Denver, being new, is still one of America's suburban-ish, cul-de-sac metro cities at present without a ton of character. But building the huge RTD LRT and commuter train network is a smart approach that should begin to alter Denver with substantial TOD growth in the future.
As far as outdoor activities go, Pittsburgh definitely takes it when it comes to water activities and proximity. However, that's not enough to make it the outright winner in that category for me personally. A lot complain about the distance from the mountains on here, but they're just a few minutes away from Downtown Denver. I've done the drive quite a few times and it's not hard. The mountains are a closer drive to Downtown than the airport is (30 minutes). Even my drive to work (I live and work in Aurora) is a longer drive.
With that said, the actual city of Denver may not have large hills or forests but the metro does. That and being the hub city for people coming to enjoy the World class recreation in the Rockies puts Denver ahead overall imo. Although I do give Pittsburgh a huge edge with outdoor rec within the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
There used to be trout in the South Platte, back in the day. I'm talking 30 years ago. I may be misremembering, but I think there was a brown trout fishery. But yeah, Denver doesn't cut it for me. Even when I lived in Boulder, I didn't go to the mountains as much as I would have liked. But Nederland, that was different. You live where you live. Denver claiming the mountains is like Orlando claiming the beach. They're close, no doubt, just far enough away you don't want to make the drive most days.
Just illustrating that there is a reason that Denver's culture is so geared towards being outdoors (despite being average within city limits) and that's because they're not far at all. Many people don't mind driving a few minutes and do so all the time.
^^Don't forget Boulder, which is literally up against the mountains, and is in a county that contains a piece of Rocky Mountain National Park, the 4th most popular NP in the country by number of visits. Google is a bit optimistic, I think with its estimate of 30 min to Denver from d/t Boulder, but it's 27 miles. One can take a bus from downtown Boulder (heck, one can start in downtown Denver actually) to Eldora Ski area.
And I disagree that Pittsburgh beats Denver for outdoor activities in the city as well, other than boating.
I don't get all the fawning over Pittsburgh's downtown. I think it's overrated. Yeah, there are some neat new skyscrapers, some cool old buildings and all is made a bit more impressive by the tight configuration and narrow streets. Overall, though, it just feels old and a bit tired... Comparatively there's not a ton of nightlife--it seems considerably deader than Cleveland's in the evening, esp on weekends. Penn Street has been developed into a nice restaurant area. I like it there. Market Square is, well, interesting, but for whatever reason it doesn't do much for me. It's Pittsburgh's answer to Cleveland's E. 4th, but I like E. 4th better. There are still not that many people living downtown -- yeah, I'm sure its numbers are pumped up by roping in North Side, but to me, downtown should be the Golden Triangle and, perhaps, the stadium area, but no more.
Denver is new and shiny. It's downtown has a lot of retail and is growing by leaps and bounds, particularly the TOD stuff in/around Union Station on the north end. But it lacks character; doesn't have the architecture of downtown Pittsburgh or Cleveland, and Cleveland nudges Pittsburgh with such beauties as the Arcade, Public Library, Federal Reserve, the old/new Heinen's supermarket and Tower City, to name a few. Aside from downtown Denver's trendy warehouse district adjacent to the Union Station transit hub (and what city doesn't have a warehouse district?), there's not a lot of old, classic architecture downtown.
Denver deserves major props for its aggressive approach to transit fueling an explosive growth in rapid transit for a medium-sized metro area. It blows both Cleveland and Pittsburgh away in terms of the sheer size of the new rail network ... and it's growing. It's brand new -- the first branch isn't even 25 years old IIRC (too lazy to research), and it's chasing sprawl that was allowed to fester in the auto age, as Denver is mainly a post World War II metropolis, unlike Cleveland and Pittsburgh which are old Industrial Age cities -- with Pittsburgh actually having Colonial roots.
In terms of Neighborhoods, Pittsburgh wins: it has denser housing certain areas, and strong commercial districts like East Liberty, Shadyside and Squirrel Hill-- and a few more walking neighborhoods than Cleveland. And Pittsburgh, like Cleveland, is aggressively beefing up its already-strong neighborhoods with several very large-scale mixed use apt/condo projects -- even more so than Cleveland, which has come on strong with these in the last 5-7 years.
Denver lacks the established culture and the institutions of Pittsburgh or Cleveland -- again, Devner's a new city. It's housing is bland -- often 1-floor, ranch style houses on large lots, which leads to the city's light density and overall freeway, car orientation. There are few really walkable neighborhoods in Denver, most are clustered near the capitol building (in Capitol Hill) along Colfax avenue and south of there -- ironically, neighborhoods Devner's giant new rail network doesn't even touch. Hopefully rail will foster the growth of such areas near train stations. Suburban Old Town Arvada next to a soon-to-open commuter rail line station is one of the few walkable areas Denver's huge rail network takes you to. Denver, being new, is still one of America's suburban-ish, cul-de-sac metro cities at present without a ton of character. But building the huge RTD LRT and commuter train network is a smart approach that should begin to alter Denver with substantial TOD growth in the future.
Seriously? Denver is building condos like crazy. Large lots? Surely you jest? Even in the suburbs, lots are small by eastern/midwestern standards. 10,000 sf (they're measured in SF here, that's about 1/4 acre) are considered HUGE, 5000 sf and sometimes even smaller is more the norm in the burbs. Many city lots are much smaller. https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...ect/10_zm/2_p/
Denver's light rail goes to the University of Denver neighborhood, and on south to (gasp!) Highlands Ranch, considered the epitome of suburbia. Maybe look at a map. RTD
Denver is not "new", it was established in 1858. Yeah, that's exactly 100 years after Pittsburgh, but it's still been around a while.
^^Don't forget Boulder, which is literally up against the mountains, and is in a county that contains a piece of Rocky Mountain National Park, the 4th most popular NP in the country by number of visits. Google is a bit optimistic, I think with its estimate of 30 min to Denver from d/t Boulder, but it's 27 miles. One can take a bus from downtown Boulder (heck, one can start in downtown Denver actually) to Eldora Ski area.
And I disagree that Pittsburgh beats Denver for outdoor activities in the city as well, other than boating.
I lived not far from Eldora Ski area (< 5 miles? can't remember) for a number of years. I'm familiar with Colorado, all the places people have mentioned, and many more! I realize most people live just east of the front range in Colorado. It's just not my favorite spot in the state. As cities, I like the other cities better. As a state, I go with Colorado over Ohio and Pennsylvania.
Look, I'm firmly in middle age. There was a time when I looked forward to getting a driver's license. Then came the commutes and all the rest of it. I'm not thrilled about driving anymore. I'm not a young hipster either, who drives hours to climb Mt. Princeton and then makes it back to Denver at night. Fun stuff, whoopee, been there, done that. Do not want to drive an hour or more each day to get where I want to be. And the places right off 70 don't count to me. They are the most congested, and most visited. You're out of the city, sort of. I used to follow little streams without trails in Indian Peaks to fish for trout. That's what I'm after.
Denver's a great city. Colorado's amazing. Ohio and Pennsylvania can't match the mountains. No contest. But the principle is this. You live where you live. Pittsburgh has issues, for sure. But I found their downtown, which admittedly I know much less well than Denver, walkable, with all the sports stadiums, etc. in easy reach, bridges over the rivers, and a hometown feel. I told somebody who knew Pittsburgh well it felt like an overgrown small town to me, and they instantly agreed. Some people want bright lights. Pittsburgh isn't that. But it had a lot of comfortable things at hand, and was attractive.
Given a week to vacation? I'd go Denver over Pittsburgh. I'd drive each day for a week to reach the mountains and arrive home tired each night. It's worth it to reach the spectacular places Colorado has. Day to day grind in one place or the other? I'm going Pittsburgh, and it isn't close for me. The poll asked a specific question. I might go Durango, Colorado, or one of the tiny Colorado mountain towns I used to live in over all these cities. Not a dig at Denver. Just a preference. Best.
Seriously? Denver is building condos like crazy. Large lots? Surely you jest? Even in the suburbs, lots are small by eastern/midwestern standards. 10,000 sf (they're measured in SF here, that's about 1/4 acre) are considered HUGE, 5000 sf and sometimes even smaller is more the norm in the burbs. Many city lots are much smaller. https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sal...ect/10_zm/2_p/
Denver's light rail goes to the University of Denver neighborhood, and on south to (gasp!) Highlands Ranch, considered the epitome of suburbia. Maybe look at a map. RTD
Denver is not "new", it was established in 1858. Yeah, that's exactly 100 years after Pittsburgh, but it's still been around a while.
Excuse you Denver is clearly less dense it’s not even close if you can’t walk around a neighborhood and immediately determine whether it’s 4,600 or 4,900 ppsm you’re just not observent.
And if you factor out the 52 sq mile airport Denver has a density of 8,600ppsm which is actually much higher than Cleveland.
I grew up in the Pittsburgh area (Beaver County). I've lived in both the city of Pittsburgh and the City of Denver. I didn't see much difference, in lifestyle. Face it, a lot of it is "eat, work, sleep". Interestingly, I only have one close friend left from high school/college days (college was in Pittsburgh) for all those friendly people. And my BFF from high school doesn't live there any more either. I left to get married, but a lot of people in my generation (older Boomers) left when the steel industry crashed, or as my BFF did, to seek job opportunities for women, who could not work in steelmaking, despite what you've seen on "Flashdance".
This is kind of my point. My wife and I have been in Arizona four years, and haven't made it to the Grand Canyon. But proximity to the Grand Canyon is a big selling point before you get here. Most of us, most of the time, want to spend as few hours as possible in our car. I wouldn't move to Pittsburgh because I want to sail at Presque Isle State Park. You live where you live. Back in the day, commuter lifestyles were all the rage. I think a lot of us are sick of that now.
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