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I would nominate Cleveland, Cincinnati and Denver as runner-up downtowns for the 9th spot. Cincy is particularly tight, vibrant and interesting, esp in/around Fountain Square. They've also done a nice job building up mixed-use development in the stadium area to the south along the Ohio River.
North, of course, blends in rather well with the old, 19th Century Over-the-Rhine neighborhood, which is seeing a rebirth with lots of in-fill development of lofts, condos and mixed-use apartments.
Downtown Cleveland has been building up since around 2010, from a prior bottoming out around the year 2000, with accelerated growth leading up to the 2016 RNC (yeah, sadly the Cleveland convention coronated you-know-who ... ugh!)... The office building adaptive-reuse development into apts, hotels, shops and the amazing Heinen's supermarket, has been breathtaking and put a lot more boots on Cleveland downtown streets, esp Euclid and lively E. 4th Street and its slammin' restaurants and bars. Downtown also has seen the rebirth of the Flats East Bank, with the boardwalk, apartments hotels and restaurants.
Downtown tends to explode weekend nights, especially during the summer and, even more especially, if one of the sports teams is playing in one of the 3 downtown sports venues.
You just described every mid sized city in America with a decent downtown. How is dt Cleveland leaps and bounds more vibrant than downtown Nashville, New Orleans, Louisville, and many more mid sized cities whose downtowns have the same kind of traffic generators? The answer is it isn't! I travel to all these cities with very frequent regularity.
I think the difference with Cleveland is its one of the only mid sized downtowns with three very well attended pro stadiums all in downtown....so regardless of the season, there is always an event that makes it seems busier than it really is in reality as the activity is very very limited around these arenas and three other bar strips...just like in every other aforementioned downtown that also have major theatre districts, bigger convention centers, restaurants, and frankly, better weather and more tourists.
The answer to the OP's question is hard to say, but it's certainly not Cleveland or any other mid sized city. San Diego is right there, along with Portland and Denver and New Orleans. They all also have amazing transit and a recent visit to SD I was blown away at the number of tower cranes up and TOD. Atlanta, Miami, Houston and Dallas also have much more vibrant downtowns than they are given credit for. People are underwhelmed only because you expect more out of these mega cities and all have uptown areas which steal the show from downtown.
The next tier down is basically user preference but it includes Ohio's Big 3 cities, Nashville, Austin, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, St Louis, Baltimore, et all. Richmond and Louisville are also right there, very neck and neck, particularly with Louisville's massive new convention center and bourbon tourism with now around 8 tourist show-stopping distilleries downtown. The difference between the last group of downtowns I mentioned is all VERY dependent on the night of the year, time of day, weather, season, and special events. They are all great downtowns for different reasons and all very vibrant, but there is not a single city in that final group whose downtown blows out another. It's all user preference and this is all from extensive research and travel to these cities over the last 5 years!
I thought that Cleveland’s downtown was pretty active when I was there a couple years ago. I haven’t been to Pittsburgh in many years but I think that they’re on the same tier.
I don't think so, I'll try to explain more below...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyoung
Portland and Denver are both under 3 million people and can make a case for being a better downtown.
As others have said, too. So I nominate Pittsburgh, Denver, and Portland as the three best downtowns under three million...
Now, do people think those downtowns compare with the likes of much larger cities like Houston, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas? I've been to Dallas and Atlanta, and I absolutely believe Pittsburgh is right there with them, same class, maybe even slightly higher or slightly below...
Never been to Denver or Portland but Denver is a must-visit for me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Cleveland's downtown beats Pittsburgh's, all things considered imho.
How?
Downtown Cleveland has way too many gaps in vibrancy. There is the area around The Q/Progressive Field; Tower City area; Playhouse Square area; 4th St; and the Lakefront area which is disconnected from everything else...
Everything in between these areas of vibrancy is basically a dead zone. The Q/Progressive area is basically only active around events and you have to go to another area to do anything else. I do think 4th St is a unique find and it can be very vibrant, reminds me of Beale St in Memphis...
Playhouse Square is a good area, but nowhere near as active as this board led me to believe before visiting Cleveland. It's not bad, though. And Tower City is an enclosure replicated in several cities, four off the top of my head being Waterside in Norfolk,Underground Atlanta or Peachtree Center, Epicentre in Charlotte and Canalside/Harbor Center in Buffalo. Tower City isn't all that unique and not even particularly more active than anything else in those other cities...
Downtown Cleveland is pretty walkable, but again is not of the level of vibrancy to belong in a discussion of next Top downtowns, is broken up in parts of its vibrancy (bunch of parking garages), and isn't all that unique in its fashion...
Downtown Pittsburgh is compact, has higher building density, taller buildings, very few, if any, dead zones, and unique with its integration of Point State Park. Much more aesthetically pleasing, more beautiful (Downtoqn Cleveland has a rather dull look), and Pittsburgh has way more people crawling around its downtown. The street level pedestrian traffic is unheard of for any similarly-sized city, save for potentially Denver and Portland that have both been mentioned as comparable. This isn't close to me. Downtown Pittsburgh has the atmosphere of a much larger city. Downtown Cleveland feels like most other cities its size...
Cleveland's strength is in its neighborhoods. Downtown is good, but it doesn't stand out...
Actually the more I think about this topic, the more I think Atlanta is being undersold here greatly. Downtown Atlanta has to be in that next group of downtowns...
Haven't made it to Pittsburgh but from the Pictures I've seen and discussions I ve had the Golden Triangle where those two Rivers meet and all the Bridges of Pittsburgh looks absolutely Beautiful
Cleveland's downtown beats Pittsburgh's, all things considered imho.
Would you like to explain because there are 3 entire blocks of surface parking directly adjacent to Public Sq, compared to Market Sq it’s quite underwhelming.
In fact the entire flats area is like 1/2 parking. Pittsburgh has the bigger contiguous area of packed mid/high rises. Add to that UC has some of the cultural amenities while Dow town Pittsburgh pretty much has everything. I think it’s a hard argument.
Granted Pittsburgh has a slightly smaller Downtown population 16vs 18 K, it’s Downtiwn is defined as .64 sq miles not just about 1.
Guys we are not going to turn this thread into Cleveland vs. Pittsburgh, or Cleveland vs. the world. If you want to assert that you feel Cleveland is the 9th best downtown in the country you're entitled to. You are NOT entitled to derail this in to a Cleveland thread.
What are the arguments AGAINST Miami for this? I haven't spent a ton of time in downtown Miami, but to me it feels on a completely different level than any of these other cities. I can't imagine anyone arguing, say, Cincinnati has a better downtown than Miami unless they had various biases against Miami.
Have you been to Portland? I think it’s probably the best. Maybe ahead of LA. Certainly ahead of Denver, and certainly Cleveland and Pittsburgh.
As I've said several times, while I believe, overall, Pittsburgh is an interesting city full of nice neighborhoods and housing, generally, that exceeds Cleveland's (brick, many rowhouses, historic places like the Mexican War Houses, Southside, etc.), downtown Pittsburgh is overrated. It does have a good daytime buzz with more businesses and HQs than Cleveland, but overall, I don't see it. Cleveland's downtown is larger, more diverse, more things to do (museums, Flats, Casino, E.4th (which beats Market Square imho), more people living there, more and better supermarkets, considerably more nightlife (not even close), etc, etc...
That's why I think it would be a better entry for the 9th spot. I think Cincy and Denver have better downtowns than Pittsburgh as well. Pittsburgh is the hot, trendy rust belt city that's made it in many mind... I get that. But it's not the end-all-be-all many are making it. It does have flaws, as much as, personally, I like it and very much enjoy visiting.
I’d say Baltimore. It feels like a miniature version of a big city. The neighborhoods are contiguous which is important to me.
Pittsburgh would be my close 2nd. Pittsburgh has a far better skyline but the geography makes it feel too isolated from its neighborhoods.
Denver is making huge strides and while I don’t like the vibe there at all, it is clearly developing into one of America’s great urban centers.
Baltimore is certainly a candidate. It's got a nice downtown, physically, although much of the business center lacks energy and foot traffic. Baltimore's strength, of course, is its harbor. Not just the Harbor Place Mall, although that's nice, but there are other cool aspects, like the other big indoor shopping mall a bit inland (forget the name off hand), the National Aquarium -- one of the 2 or 3 best in the nation -- area heading toward Federal Hill, Camden Yards, and the newer built-up areas along East Harbor, Little Italy, and on towards Canton. B'more's downtown should also be a candidate for that 9th spot.
Portland, Houston, St Louis, Pittsburgh, Denver, Baltimore.
Take Saint Louis and Houston off the list
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