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Baltimore City has 2.5x the homicide rate of DC, and has lost 18,000 people this decade, while the District has gained 101,000. Two cities going in opposite directions.
I lived in the DC area for 20 years, and no professional, not one, would ever consider living in Baltimore. It's more than just the crime. Never mind DC, Baltimore has fewer office jobs than Tyson's Corner. It's not well educated like DC, its airport has remarkably light international service, the bar/restaurant scene is chains and just a handful of other places you'll get sick of quickly. Even recent grads with less money would choose to live in group houses in transitioning parts of DC rather than deal with the commute and the dead social life of Baltimore.
In terms of this thread, very few outsiders move to Baltimore. Much easier to be from somewhere else in Denver or Charlotte.
Baltimore City has 2.5x the homicide rate of DC, and has lost 18,000 people this decade, while the District has gained 101,000. Two cities going in opposite directions.
Baltimore is loosing population because the influx of people moving in cannot offset the exodus of lower income blacks. Developers wouldn’t be throwing up 300’ apartment buildings left and right if their wasn’t a desire to move into the city.
The only opposite direction there moving in is population.
Both are cities murder rates have skyrocketed unless you forgot that DC had under 80 murders a year not even half a decade ago compared to know its now norm of +140 per year
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
I lived in the DC area for 20 years, and no professional, not one, would ever consider living in Baltimore. It's more than just the crime. Never mind DC, Baltimore has fewer office jobs than Tyson's Corner. It's not well educated like DC, its airport has remarkably light international service, the bar/restaurant scene is chains and just a handful of other places you'll get sick of quickly. Even recent grads with less money would choose to live in group houses in transitioning parts of DC rather than deal with the commute and the dead social life of Baltimore.
I’ve lived in both cities or equal distance between both for the last 18 years, I’m as local as they come. We are obviously in different social circles, because I know enough young professional adults my age who couldn’t afford DC and moved to Baltimore so they could still live in a local city.
I frequent both, have family and friends in both and am not biased to one over the other. In regards to the social life of Baltimore, it’s actually has a local culture unlike DC’s transplant scene (Again this is coming from someone that is from the District). In regards to the bar/restaurant seen, DC has more because it’s a 2x larger metro, but I have never herd anyone say Baltimore “lacks“ a bar scene in any shape or form
This shouldn’t become a DC vs Baltimore debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
In terms of this thread, very few outsiders move to Baltimore. Much easier to be from somewhere else in Denver or Charlotte.
That’s fine and it’s been a acknowledged as accurate.
They're all close enough in scope whether it be population wise/economically to be considered "peer" cities so which one would is messed poised for the future.
Cityscape
Crime/Safety
Traffic
CoL
Public Transportation
Local Culture
Education
Scenery
Nightlife/Entertainment
Economy/Job Diversity
Future Potential
I can’t speak about Denver from experience, but I assume it would probably be the winner based off my knowledge. I would guess if would the cake between the 3 cities, handily.
Specifically Baltimore vs. Charlotte. I feel like urban Charlotte (the actual city, not counting all the annexed portions) would win in every category. Which honestly surprised me. Baltimore, at least when I’ve been, just doesn’t feel cosmopolitan and feels kinda small and empty. Inner Harbor obviously had good amounts of peopel but I wasn’t really a fan of the retailers ringing it. I personally think the wharf in DC is head and shoulders above inner harbor. I was sort of expecting it to be more like the wharf.
Developers wouldn’t be throwing up 300’ apartment buildings left and right if their wasn’t a desire to move into the city.
Developers are not doing this, this is false, and the dated and gap-filled skyline reflects this. Baltimore is losing population, and the investment in the city also reflects this. Just 2,000 multi-family units have been permitted this year in the entire Baltimore MSA, compared to 6,000-8,000 each in Denver and Charlotte, and 10,000+ in DC. The valuation gap is even larger because land is so cheap in Baltimore. But many people won't live in Baltimore even if rent is free.
Baltimore needs to keep its focus on demolishing its massive inventory of abandoned homes. If it keeps doing that, it might enter a conversation where it can be reasonably compared to Detroit, but it's not there yet.
Developers are not doing this, this is false, and the dated and gap-filled skyline reflects this. Baltimore is losing population, and the investment in the city also reflects this. Just 2,000 multi-family units have been permitted this year in the entire Baltimore MSA compared to 6,000-8,000 each in Denver and Charlotte, and 10,000+ in DC. The valuation gap is even larger because land is so cheap in Baltimore. But many people won't live in Baltimore even if rent is free.
Baltimore needs to keep its focus on demolishing its massive inventory of abandoned homes. If it keeps doing that, it might enter a conversation where it can be reasonably compared to Detroit, but it's not there yet.
Baltimore just opened a 290' tall 282 unit apartment building last month thats 50% leased and just topped out another 280' tall 400 unit apartment building a few blocks north in Little Italy. Last year we had the 500' tall 414 Light Street & 364' tall 1 Light Street. Theres two more +500' mixed use buildings in immediate planning stages now destined for those gaps that every skyline has.
Population loss/crime is only painting half the picture on why city not being invested in. We have governor that blatantly dis-invest in the city (many of which would help fix current problems) to dump funds into DC or the fact Maryland in general not a business friendly state, which helps in no way.
In regards to the Detroit vs Baltimore situation.... hard no. Even with Baltimore's swaths of dystopian row homes and crime increase, no city in the history of the country went through the infrastructure, economy & population implosion Detroit went through outside the Great Depression (Baltimore included)
No one is denying or glazing over that the city is going through some very serious issues, but the whole mindset that it's America's new Gotham and is beyond bias.
Baltimore just opened a 290' tall 282 unit apartment building last month thats 50% leased and just topped out another 280' tall 400 unit apartment building a few blocks north in Little Italy.
290 feet is fairly modest in most other cities. But this also highlights part of the issue in Baltimore. 282 units isn't very many, and the entire Baltimore MSA has permitted only 2,000 units in apartments/condos this year, compared to 6k-8k in Denver and Charlotte, which for now, are comparably sized metros, and 12,000 in the DC MSA. The demand simply isn't there in and around Baltimore.
What Baltimore is lacking is the kind of gentrification DC has had, which is the rehabbing of buildings in transitioning neighborhoods by individuals, not just the developers' showcase projects. DC's rowhouse stock was invested in by residents, and didn't need to be knocked down. With Baltimore's small islands of safety surrounded by seas of crime, it's too risky, for example, to start urban pioneering north of Patterson Park. Yet in DC, many people did exactly this along East Capitol Street, along U Street, along P Street, block by block, rowhouse by rowhouse in neighborhoods that transitioned from crack paradises to walkable neighborhoods with high end restaurants/retail. It's still shocking to walk down 14th street now compared to what it was like in the 90s.
Baltimore's housing stock is also far less attractive. The rowhouses with no trees in front and being just feet from the sidewalk aren't going to be mistaken for Brooklyn Brownstones, Boston Back Bay and South End rowhouses, Philly Society Hill homes, or those in DC near Adams Morgan, Logan Circle, and Capitol Hill.
Detroit's destruction of abandoned homes is the right model of Baltimore, and it's good to see this happening more and more there. But just as an improving Detroit doesn't attract many outsiders, it's also foolish to think Baltimore can compete with Denver and Charlotte.
290 feet is fairly modest in most other cities. But this also highlights part of the issue in Baltimore. 282 units isn't very many, and the entire Baltimore MSA has permitted only 2,000 units in apartments/condos this year, compared to 6k-8k in Denver and Charlotte, which for now, are comparably sized metros, and 12,000 in the DC MSA. The demand simply isn't there in and around Baltimore.
In what world is a 282-400 unit apartment building considered small?. The vast majority of DC's are the same size (I actively follow/track development in both cities). In regards to the height "issue"... Baltimore finished a 500' tall apartment building and a 364' tall mixed used just last year, and has two more +500' apartment/mixed use buildings in planning/development phase as we speak. At the end of the day height is trivial and nothing more than vanity unless your NYC in which it's economically needed.
No one is denying Denver, Charlotte are growing at a faster. One is on a geographic "island" to speak of and.. the other one is a up and coming Sunbelt City with no big cities in the immediate area. Baltimore is literally squished in between two metros 2x its size. Its location neuters its population growth irregardless of internal stability while at the same time allowing its metro to economically prosper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
What Baltimore is lacking is the kind of gentrification DC has had, which is the rehabbing of buildings in transitioning neighborhoods by individuals, not just the developers' showcase projects. DC's rowhouse stock was invested in by residents, and didn't need to be knocked down. With Baltimore's small islands of safety surrounded by seas of crime, it's too risky, for example, to start urban pioneering north of Patterson Park. Yet in DC, many people did exactly this along East Capitol Street, along U Street, along P Street, block by block, rowhouse by rowhouse in neighborhoods that transitioned from crack paradises to walkable neighborhoods with high end restaurants/retail. It's still shocking to walk down 14th street now compared to what it was like in the 90s.
Baltimore has 5-6x as much row houses as DC. Philly & Baltimore are the only cities in the country in where row homes make the majority of housing stock, nocking them down or rehabbing all of them is not physically or financially realistic in any near term way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
Baltimore's housing stock is also far less attractive. The rowhouses with no trees in front and being just feet from the sidewalk aren't going to be mistaken for Brooklyn Brownstones, Boston Back Bay and South End rowhouses, Philly Society Hill homes, or those in DC near Adams Morgan, Logan Circle, and Capitol Hill.
Housing stock attractiveness is subjective. If any Baltimore is going in the way of DC by mixing 5-6 story apartments with it's row homes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
Detroit's destruction of abandoned homes is the right model of Baltimore, and it's good to see this happening more and more there. But just as an improving Detroit doesn't attract many outsiders, it's also foolish to think Baltimore can compete with Denver and Charlotte.
No one is expecting Baltimore to compete in that particular area.
Idk why we're still comparing Bmore to DC on a thread that doesn't concern DC whatsoever. You can argue all you want that Bmore isn't building as many new residential units as Charlotte and Denver, but does more residential housing really mean the place is better per se? More people may be moving there. Or it could mean there just isn't the housing stock.
On the other side of this argument is the fact that Denver and Charlotte are much newer cities and they need to build more residential units in order to match the population growth. However, Baltimore likely has a lot of rowhomes and apartments that can accommodate growth better. I know Charlotte and Denver are growing and Baltimore really isn't, but I'm just saying that the number of units built doesn't inherently make one place better than another.
At the end of the day, I'd choose Baltimore over both Charlotte and Denver no matter what. Denver is bland and sterile and too granola-white for me. It's not my vibe at all. It's too isolated from other cities. It has no open water access and I like living near water. Charlotte is basically just an entire suburb with a few tall buildings in an urban office park setting. It's getting better for sure, but it still isn't some cultural hub. It's a generic Sun Belt city. Baltimore has history, charm, local culture, public transit, walkability, proximity to other major cities, a beautiful setting on the harbor and relatively close to the ocean in comparison to the other cities. It may be rough in some areas, but I'm not an idiot and I know how to be safe in a big city. I'll take the crime of Baltimore if it means I don't have live in a generic city almost entirely void of real culture.
And, before anyone comments about the culture aspect, I do believe other Sun Belt cities have culture. Atlanta has tons. Miami and Tampa do. Dallas and Austin do. I don't like Austin's, but it has culture. Charlotte doesn't and Denver's culture is basically just white people who like to hike.
So no, I'm not impressed by Denver and Charlotte's construction numbers. That doesn't mean anything to me. And if you want to bring DC into the discussion, remember that only Baltimore is within the urban Northeast Corridor and only Baltimore is connected to another major city via commuter rail and numerous others via frequent Amtrak service. That's a bonus for some people, including me.
At the end of the day, I'd choose Baltimore over both Charlotte and Denver no matter what. Denver is bland and sterile and too granola-white for me. It's not my vibe at all. It's too isolated from other cities. It has no open water access and I like living near water. Charlotte is basically just an entire suburb with a few tall buildings in an urban office park setting. It's getting better for sure, but it still isn't some cultural hub. It's a generic Sun Belt city.
I've spent a ton of time in Denver. I used to have an office on South Colorado @ I-25. The established leafy single family home neighborhoods around Washington Park and the University of Denver are really nice with a great walkability score. I could easily see a lifestyle where I live there, walk to light rail to my Tech Center job, and try to get up I-80 skiing 3 per week with my Epic Pass and a condo at one of the resorts. The Anywhere USA sprawl is disgusting. Low rise apartments and condos with strip malls & chain businesses isn't my thing. With the cash to buy my way into living in the desirable part of Denver, it's a nice place. If I have to live on what was prairie 10 years ago in my new construction 2 bedroom apartment, no thanks.
I've sailed a lot on the Chesapeake. I'm not sure I'd call the narrow, shallow mud bottom bay around Baltimore "open water". We took a look at Baltimore a few years ago when the recruiters were chasing my girlfriend about a couple of jobs. It's certainly the most urban of the three cities being discussed here but the gentrification is really limited. Johns Hopkins is like an island surrounded by sketchy. You don't have to get far from Inner Harbor before it deteriorates. I think it's too close to DC with that MARC line to not gentrify a lot more but it's not there yet. I'd much rather live in Denver Washington Park in dense semi-urban.
I've only been to Charlotte a few times. I never saw anything that wasn't Anywhere USA sprawl but I'm sure it exists. The top-10% with the 6-figure office tower jobs have their enclaves somewhere. I never detected them anywhere within the city limits.
Idk why we're still comparing Bmore to DC on a thread that doesn't concern DC whatsoever. You can argue all you want that Bmore isn't building as many new residential units as Charlotte and Denver, but does more residential housing really mean the place is better per se? More people may be moving there. Or it could mean there just isn't the housing stock.
On the other side of this argument is the fact that Denver and Charlotte are much newer cities and they need to build more residential units in order to match the population growth. However, Baltimore likely has a lot of rowhomes and apartments that can accommodate growth better. I know Charlotte and Denver are growing and Baltimore really isn't, but I'm just saying that the number of units built doesn't inherently make one place better than another.
At the end of the day, I'd choose Baltimore over both Charlotte and Denver no matter what. Denver is bland and sterile and too granola-white for me. It's not my vibe at all. It's too isolated from other cities. It has no open water access and I like living near water. Charlotte is basically just an entire suburb with a few tall buildings in an urban office park setting. It's getting better for sure, but it still isn't some cultural hub. It's a generic Sun Belt city. Baltimore has history, charm, local culture, public transit, walkability, proximity to other major cities, a beautiful setting on the harbor and relatively close to the ocean in comparison to the other cities. It may be rough in some areas, but I'm not an idiot and I know how to be safe in a big city. I'll take the crime of Baltimore if it means I don't have live in a generic city almost entirely void of real culture.
And, before anyone comments about the culture aspect, I do believe other Sun Belt cities have culture. Atlanta has tons. Miami and Tampa do. Dallas and Austin do. I don't like Austin's, but it has culture. Charlotte doesn't and Denver's culture is basically just white people who like to hike.
So no, I'm not impressed by Denver and Charlotte's construction numbers. That doesn't mean anything to me. And if you want to bring DC into the discussion, remember that only Baltimore is within the urban Northeast Corridor and only Baltimore is connected to another major city via commuter rail and numerous others via frequent Amtrak service. That's a bonus for some people, including me.
That's like saying Baltimore is nothing but a giant ghetto with people setting buildings on fire, shootings and nothing to do but look at a war-torn looking area filled with rundown and dilapidated buildings and poverty.
Extreme stereotypes. Personally think downtown Charlotte is much more fun and cosmopolitan than Baltimore. It also feels like it has more bustle. Opinions, but the "nothing but suburb" narrative is just so false. There's 20,000 people within 2 sq. miles, 4 Fortune 500 HQ's and Wells Fargo defacto HQ, high incomes, 3 sports stadiums, etc. etc. It's more than just an office park with a few tall towers... Not too bad for a Metro of around 2.6M not in the northeast.
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