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I've spent a ton of time in Denver. I used to have an office on South Colorado @ I-25. The established leafy single family home neighborhoods around Washington Park and the University of Denver are really nice with a great walkability score. I could easily see a lifestyle where I live there, walk to light rail to my Tech Center job, and try to get up I-80 skiing 3 per week with my Epic Pass and a condo at one of the resorts. The Anywhere USA sprawl is disgusting. Low rise apartments and condos with strip malls & chain businesses isn't my thing. With the cash to buy my way into living in the desirable part of Denver, it's a nice place. If I have to live on what was prairie 10 years ago in my new construction 2 bedroom apartment, no thanks.
I've sailed a lot on the Chesapeake. I'm not sure I'd call the narrow, shallow mud bottom bay around Baltimore "open water". We took a look at Baltimore a few years ago when the recruiters were chasing my girlfriend about a couple of jobs. It's certainly the most urban of the three cities being discussed here but the gentrification is really limited. Johns Hopkins is like an island surrounded by sketchy. You don't have to get far from Inner Harbor before it deteriorates. I think it's too close to DC with that MARC line to not gentrify a lot more but it's not there yet. I'd much rather live in Denver Washington Park in dense semi-urban.
I've only been to Charlotte a few times. I never saw anything that wasn't Anywhere USA sprawl but I'm sure it exists. The top-10% with the 6-figure office tower jobs have their enclaves somewhere. I never detected them anywhere within the city limits.
I know plenty of people love Denver. There are some solid urban neighborhoods. But it's hard to say it's as urban as Baltimore. And that's not everyone's cup of tea. I totally get that. But that's part of my point that just because Denver is building a ton of apartments doesn't mean it's factually the better city.
When you compare Inner Harbor to anything Charlotte and Denver has, it's open water. You can go boating on it and even just the aspect of being able to stroll along the waterfront is something I couldn't give up. I did for a few years and I never realized how much I'd miss water access. Even river cities that utilize the river well are good enough for me. Like Philly. With the bars and parks on the river, it doesn't feel entirely inland. NYC is the harbor, but a lot is focused on the East and Hudson Rivers. Being able to walk along the riverfronts and spend time there is a far better experience than anything in Denver in Charlotte. I couldn't trade that. I know Charlotte has lakes outside the city, but nothing right in the city for the urban residents to explore or relax at.
That's like saying Baltimore is nothing but a giant ghetto with people setting buildings on fire, shootings and nothing to do but look at a war-torn looking area filled with rundown and dilapidated buildings and poverty.
Extreme stereotypes. Personally think downtown Charlotte is much more fun and cosmopolitan than Baltimore. It also feels like it has more bustle. Opinions, but the "nothing but suburb" narrative is just so false. There's 20,000 people within 2 sq. miles, 4 Fortune 500 HQ's and Wells Fargo defacto HQ, high incomes, 3 sports stadiums, etc. etc. It's more than just an office park with a few tall towers... Not too bad for a Metro of around 2.6M not in the northeast.
Ok yes, an exaggeration. But urban Charlotte is quite small compared to the population and area of the metro. It's better than a lot of Sun Belt cities, but it's not spectacular for an urban city person. It's improving too. But still, the suburbs make up a very good portion and the urban lifestyle can't even come close to comparing to Baltimore. And, for someone like me, urban living is important. That's the point I'm trying to convey on here. Building permits issues is not a solid way of considering one better than the other.
Also, FWIW, in my personal experience, those moving to the Charlotte and Raleigh metros from the Northeast (NJ/NY) are usually doing so because they want easy suburban living. Most rarely utilize NYC and Philly. So it makes more sense to move somewhere with similar jobs, a lower COL, less traffic, and more suburban lifestyles. I know 100% this isn't true for every single person moving to Charlotte, but I do have a lot of personal experience with people and people knowing people and blah blah blah who moved to Charlotte for easier suburban living compared to NJ/NY. When you build a city to accommodate those people, it's never going to be a solid urban city. Nevertheless, Charlotte has still done a good job at urbanizing. I'll give credit where credit is due. The urban footprint has expanded and filled in quite a bit recently. I mean hell, I'd probably live in Charlotte over Denver but that's my personal preference of East Coast v. West Coast and the granola types living in Denver. But that would also depend on NC's politics since NC is the reddest of the three states on this thread, albeit not that red at all compared to the rest of the country.
That's like saying Baltimore is nothing but a giant ghetto with people setting buildings on fire, shootings and nothing to do but look at a war-torn looking area filled with rundown and dilapidated buildings and poverty.
Extreme stereotypes. Personally think downtown Charlotte is much more fun and cosmopolitan than Baltimore. It also feels like it has more bustle. Opinions, but the "nothing but suburb" narrative is just so false. There's 20,000 people within 2 sq. miles, 4 Fortune 500 HQ's and Wells Fargo defacto HQ, high incomes, 3 sports stadiums, etc. etc. It's more than just an office park with a few tall towers... Not too bad for a Metro of around 2.6M not in the northeast.
I definitely agree on the false narratives and over exaggerations, they serve no purpose in debates.
That being said, Baltimore is a functionally larger city by a good margin (not that that detracts from Charlotte). The former has over 40k living within that same 2 sq/mi box around downtown, and if the city was to annex to its area to the size of Charlotte, it would have something like 1.2-1.3 million people. Downtown Baltimore is ever so increasing its image to a residential neighborhood as companies leave downtown for the burbs (Baltimore has zero fortune 500 companies) with full on skyscrapers are being rehabbed into apartment/condo's.
In regards to hustle bustle... I'd argue weather is going to play a biggest factor. When it's 30 degrees outside no one is going outside in Baltimore's downtown so Charlotte is going to fell substantially buiser. On the flip side if you were to the got to Inner Harbor on a summer weekend, its crowds will be bigger than Charlottes just off of the cities resident population, density & commuter influx advantage.
Where Charlotte (and Denver) blow Baltimore out the water is population growth, crime & cooperate relocations.
I definitely agree on the false narratives and over exaggerations, they serve no purpose in debates.
That being said, Baltimore is a functionally larger city by a good margin (not that that detracts from Charlotte). The former has over 40k living within that same 2 sq/mi box around downtown, and if the city was to annex to its area to the size of Charlotte, it would have something like 1.2-1.3 million people. Downtown Baltimore is ever so increasing its image to a residential neighborhood as companies leave downtown for the burbs (Baltimore has zero fortune 500 companies) with full on skyscrapers are being rehabbed into apartment/condo's.
In regards to hustle bustle... I'd argue weather is going to play a biggest factor. When it's 30 degrees outside no one is going outside in Baltimore's downtown so Charlotte is going to fell substantially buiser. On the flip side if you were to the got to Inner Harbor on a summer weekend, its crowds will be bigger than Charlottes just off of the cities resident population, density & commuter influx advantage.
Where Charlotte (and Denver) blow Baltimore out the water is population growth, crime & cooperate relocations.
I agree with you for the most part. It’s a larger metro population wise in a smaller area +, like most cities in the northeast, more dense.
But, at least for Charlotte, it’s downtown serves as a destination for people to go out into. It’s still a hub of action even if for the folks in the ‘burbs. Not saying any of the sunbelt cities are the most urban cities since sliced-bread, but the constant Atlanta/Charlotte/etc are giant suburbs/office parks is so dismissive of the period of urbanism we live in.
Baltimore wins this for me imho. It's got the location, the urban infrastructure, the culture, the architecture...the style of living most similar to what I like. I think people really wayyyy overblow the situation in the city. The crime/poverty rate is a major problem. Accepted. No one in or out a Baltimore will deny that. But people on this forum (usually those not familiar with the place) will say "Baltimore is the next Detroit" or "Baltimore is 90% crime ridden" or "if you walk down the street from JH or the Inner Harbor it's crime everywhere". I sit here wondering what city are they talking about. I've lived in three different neighborhoods in Baltimore before I moved and none of them were particularly as dangerous as described by others. I'm not oblivious or stupid though: Baltimore definitely has a crime and poverty problem for sure. But it's not "widespread and rampant" like people on this forum say it is. Just like other major cities in the US, Baltimore's crime problems are very localized to specific areas of the city. Chicago is a very dangerous city and if I listened to most forum-goers here I'd probably be terrified to go visit. However, I know that if I asked a Chicagoan, they would tell me that most of the crime is on the South side. Baltimore's crime issues is on the west side of the city. North Baltimore and central Baltimore are okay and large parts of the east side of the city (where I used to live) are decent. You can avoid the crime in Baltimore if you don't go out looking for it. I'm sure there are parts of Denver and Charlotte that are filled with crime and poverty. It's just the parts of Baltimore that are bad are much worse than the bad parts of Denver or Charlotte.
The only reason I moved out of Baltimore was because I went to school in the DC area and eventually stayed for a job. I like DC but it doesn't have the same urban character and feel that Baltimore (and the other major northeastern cities have) has and it's much more expensive for what I get. It feels like a dense Atlanta - not saying that's bad though lol (idk if people would understand what I mean). I'd have rather stayed in Baltimore tbh and live like a king. The commute would have been painful though. That being said, when compared to Denver and Charlotte, I think Baltimore can stand and punch its weight. I even think it wins against them. Economically, the city does somewhat poor which happens to be my other major gripe with Baltimore. If it had half the opportunities that DC has I'm sure I and many others who left would have stayed put without question. We didn't have much of a choice. The city government doesn't seem interested in reversing the crime and poverty problem and moving Baltimore forward the way that Charlotte and Denver has. I wish they'd fix this because there is a lot of potential in the city. If Baltimore could have done what NOVA did in its city/metro area then this wouldn't have been a contest. Hopefully this changes in the near future and from what it seems like, it seems to be trending slowly in the right direction lately.
That being said, I think Charlotte and Denver beats Baltimore as cities that are currently better to live in at the moment but that's mainly because of their economic output and their better crime/safety and poverty ratings. As a city/metro area in general, Baltimore has a better location, great urban landscape and architecture, better local culture, more nightlife and things to do, better public transportation, better traffic flow, lacks in K-12 education but runs away with it a the university/higher education level (at the metro level they're about the same in K-12 edu and I'd probably say Baltimore wins that since MD in general is one of the top 5 states in terms of schools), cost of living isn't as low as Charlotte but it isn't that high and it definitely isn't as high as Denver, the city is pretty poor compared to the other cities but again as a metro area its actually the richest metro of the three, and if it can get it's head on straight and find leaders with vision, it's potential is definitely the highest of the three. By the determining factors you gave it's not even as close as I initially expected now that I think about it. It's just that Baltimore, admittingly, loses on the two most important factors: economy (specifically economic growth) and crime/safety.
I've spent a ton of time in Denver. I used to have an office on South Colorado @ I-25. The established leafy single family home neighborhoods around Washington Park and the University of Denver are really nice with a great walkability score. I could easily see a lifestyle where I live there, walk to light rail to my Tech Center job, and try to get up I-80 skiing 3 per week with my Epic Pass and a condo at one of the resorts. The Anywhere USA sprawl is disgusting. Low rise apartments and condos with strip malls & chain businesses isn't my thing. With the cash to buy my way into living in the desirable part of Denver, it's a nice place. If I have to live on what was prairie 10 years ago in my new construction 2 bedroom apartment, no thanks.
Well, you'd be living in a 2 bedroom apartment on the plains... Wash Park, just like the rest of Denver, is overpriced and overrated. It's nice, but it's not particularly beautiful, the park is stupid crowded, and it's got some of the inner city problems that go along with it's walkability score and location. I'm sure there's even more amazing portions of Charlotte and Baltimore if we're looking at the 800K-1.5 million dollar price range.
It'll be interesting to see how Denver does in the 2020s with the weed boom being largely over with so many states legalizing (even though many on C-D are convinced weed was 0% of Denvers boom, ha), oil and gas getting crushed financially, and it's increasing infrastructure problems. Similarly Baltimore's potential is in the air. Charlotte is easier to predict I think.
Well, you'd be living in a 2 bedroom apartment on the plains... Wash Park, just like the rest of Denver, is overpriced and overrated. It's nice, but it's not particularly beautiful, the park is stupid crowded, and it's got some of the inner city problems that go along with it's walkability score and location. I'm sure there's even more amazing portions of Charlotte and Baltimore if we're looking at the 800K-1.5 million dollar price range.
It'll be interesting to see how Denver does in the 2020s with the weed boom being largely over with so many states legalizing (even though many on C-D are convinced weed was 0% of Denvers boom, ha), oil and gas getting crushed financially, and it's increasing infrastructure problems. Similarly Baltimore's potential is in the air. Charlotte is easier to predict I think.
I agree on the points of Denver's growth is going to cap off just off of physical isolation, and the CoL is rapidly climbing because of it.
Baltimore in the 2020's is truly a hit or miss at this point, but I personally don't see it changing much at all until drastic leadership/ideas are brought in.
Charlotte is rabid hot right now in terms of economic & population growth and short of a massive recession I don't see it slowing down in the next 5-10 years. Like you said, it's future is by far the easiest to predict atm.
charlotte first ecause of growth and wealth
baltimore second because of culture food and low cost of living
denver is last because i am not interested in the cold and snow
For future growth, I'd say Charlotte then Baltimore then Denver. Charlotte's kind of obvious and I put Baltimore 2nd because the data center boom and boom in general that is the DC area will spill up that direction, assuming they can do something about the crime and corruption.
Denver's kind of boxed itself in. It's really expensive and the roads and infrastructure can't meet existing demands, let alone future ones, and public transit won't fix the gap. The most recent addition to get water to the city involved pumping it out of wells in the San Luis Valley (a long way away) and transporting it over a series of reservoirs over to the front range. There's much better options for retirees elsewhere in CO outside of the immediate metro of Denver. If you count the whole Denver CSA area, then there's more potential.
I am unaware of any major data center industry in Baltimore. Baltimore and Ann Arundel and Howard Counties have a major and growing cyber security industry generated by spin-offs from the NSA at Fort Meade. We are told that the cyber security industry will consolidate at the recently started Port Covington project, but we won't know much until well after the first buildings are finished in early 2021. Port Covington is a fantastic location that other cities will have trouble competing with because it is on the water and an interstate and is on the side of the city that is closest to DC.
Port Covington is also physically separated from the rest of the city by water, and interstate highway, and a rail yard, so criminals will have a hard time getting there and getting away. I actually had a pro-crime coworker complain that the Port Covington project is unfair to criminals because they won't be able to get their fair share of the economic activity there. Maybe the criminals should form a union?
At the end of the day, I'd choose Baltimore over both Charlotte and Denver no matter what. Denver is bland and sterile and too granola-white for me. It's not my vibe at all. It's too isolated from other cities. It has no open water access and I like living near water. Charlotte is basically just an entire suburb with a few tall buildings in an urban office park setting. It's getting better for sure, but it still isn't some cultural hub. It's a generic Sun Belt city. Baltimore has history, charm, local culture, public transit, walkability, proximity to other major cities, a beautiful setting on the harbor and relatively close to the ocean in comparison to the other cities. It may be rough in some areas, but I'm not an idiot and I know how to be safe in a big city. I'll take the crime of Baltimore if it means I don't have live in a generic city almost entirely void of real culture.
And, before anyone comments about the culture aspect, I do believe other Sun Belt cities have culture. Atlanta has tons. Miami and Tampa do. Dallas and Austin do. I don't like Austin's, but it has culture. Charlotte doesn't and Denver's culture is basically just white people who like to hike.
I get your reasons for preferring Baltimore to Charlotte but your characterization of Charlotte is a bit extreme. Everyplace has culture, even if it's not one that jumps out to outsiders or isn't generally considered "sexy" of what have you and this includes Charlotte. However I know some people prefer cities with something of an overly defining local culture (even if a good chunk of it is becoming mostly relics of a previous era due to recent growth) which Charlotte really isn't. And I realize some people don't have as much of an appreciation for pre-war streetcar suburbs when it comes to urbanity, but I'd say Charlotte has enough of them (as well as old mill villages) to be described as much more than a giant suburb although no one's certainly going to mistake it for Richmond or Louisville.
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