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I love grit. And how can you not love affordability. I like Phillies charm.
I'm not sure if I offended but my prior post but I do wish Philly the best.
When I visit cities it's the oldest, grittiest or roughest areas that peak my interest.
Although I love trees, I do not like block after block of spotless concrete.
I always visit downtown when I visit Vegas.
The stench of the French Quarter brings a joy to my heart.
New York City's 'wildlife' intrigues me.
If I had to pick the top 6 urban cores I would like to live it would have to be New York, Philly, Boston, Baltimore, New Orleans and San Francisco. No particular order
I understand that view 100%, part of the reason why I love Philadelphia and New York.
But your other post asking "what happened to Philadelphia?" was a write-off (in my view).
Philadelphia isn't the #2 city anymore, but its been a top #2-8 city for over 300 years. What American cities can claim that other than New York and maybe Boston? I wouldn't so much say Philadelphia fell, but other cities caught up, but Philadelphia is still right there with them and poised to stay relevant with its diverse culture, history and economy, notable institutions and growth as a healthcare/life sciences hub.
Philly had all the makings for the secondmost premiere city in the US. What happened? Is it the sandwich between NY, and that capital stealer DC?
I am really hoping for a major Philly Renaissance. And not a SF Renaissance where the entire collection of areas rise, but a Central City Renaissance.
Frankly, I want to see a total renaissance of the whole city - but I think I know what you really mean here: a revival that doesn't end up turning the entire city into a ritzy suburb with more sidewalks, more restaurants and better coffee shops.
I want to see that too.
As for your first question, I think the answer I gave on Quora to the question "Is there a rivalry between Washington (DC), Philadelphia, New York City and Boston?" will answer your question as well, and it will also touch on what I'd call the "character" or "personality" of the four cities:
Quote:
While they are correct in stating that New York is really like no other American city and occupies a plane of its own, the way the New Yorkers who have responded to this question have answered it helps explain why those in other cities regard it with something less than the slack-jawed awe they feel it deserves.
Washingtonians, as denizens of the capital city of the erstwhile Leader of the Free World and the most powerful nation on earth, at least for now, are prone to a similar form of hubris. Only theirs is even greater than New York’s, for they confuse the government for the whole ball of wax. (I should note in that city’s defense that there is a class of Washingtonian who was born and raised there and thus knows about the actual city that’s buried under the mountain of self-importance.)
Boston is America’s intellectual capital and thus Bostonians float above all this. (New Yorkers may contest this statement.) Rivalry is beneath them unless it’s in sports. The punchline of a joke I heard about Bostonians’ attitude towards the rest of the world (or at least the country) sums up that city well, in my opinion: “Why should I travel when I’m already here?”
Philadelphia is the city that had, then lost, all of the above glittering prizes save the intellectual one. (We came late to that party.) That sense of loss, I think, helped inform the attitude often labeled as “Negadelphian,” which is a noteworthy feature of the local population. (I often describe that attitude with this sentence: “Philadelphia is underrated, and nobody underrates it as much as the locals.”) But I also think that this may make Philadelphia the only one of the four cities that truly has its head screwed on straight. (Not to mention that the city’s Quaker heritage manifests itself in a disinclination towards boasting.)
Philadelphia Eagles player Jason Kelce may have captured the local addytood best when he led the hundreds of thousands of cheering fans who celebrated the team’s first NFL championship since 1960 in the following song:
“We’re from Philly. F**kin’ Philly. No one likes us. We don’t care.”
(I should, however, point out to one of the New Yorkers that more residents move between New York City and Philadelphia than between any other pair of U.S. metropolitan areas. This actually should make sense, since their commutersheds overlap in Central New Jersey and even parts of Bucks County. (Both metros claim Mercer County, NJ, home to the state capital of Trenton, as their own. The Feds give it to New York, and Nielsen gives it to Philadelphia.)
(For at least the past 20 years, the population flow has been net towards Philadelphia, driven largely by New Yorkers seeking big-city living and amenities at a price they can still afford.)
Now on to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
On top of being in between NYC AND DC PHIKKY got too enamored with big factories and manufacturing in the middle of the last century and didnt keep diversifying it’s economy
In the period that stretches roughly from 1850 to 1950, manufacturing was the driver of economic growth in every major U.S. city save New York. Textiles, clothing and shoes in and around Boston, cars in Detroit, steel in Pittsburgh, chemicals in Cleveland, and everything under the sun in Philadelphia, which was the largest of all of the manufacturing centers and took pride in that fact: "The Workshop of the World" was the city's nickname. Up until the end of World War II, one couldn't be "too enamored" of manufacturing.
But the city did have some things going on other than manufacturing, and those would end up saving its bacon many years later. A development at Penn in 1946 - the birth of electronic computing - ultimately brought Boston back from the undead while Philadelphia proved unable to capitalize on the development, and that difference accounts for the different trajectories of the two cities since.
Edited to finish this answer: What the city did have going for it during its half-century of deindustrialization and population loss was a still-strong professional sector, especially in the legal and medical professions, and a decent amount of talent in finance - the mutual fund that pioneered the "buy the index" strategy, now the largest mutual fund company in the country (and owned by its investors), is headquartered in the Philly 'burbs. Our elite university didn't really kick into high gear until the 1980s, however - but when it did, it could draw on the established strength of its top-tier professional schools, including the world's first business school (and still the world's best in the eyes of many) and the nation's first medical school (with a Top-20 teaching hospital to go with it*) to leverage the talent that came out of them to grow new businesses. Boston may outrank us as a center for biomedical research, but Philly is (I think) #3 in the country (New York comes in between the two cities) in that field, and around it, a growing tech ecosystem (including non-medical tech) has emerged.
Basically, Philly joined the party late, but it's now coming back strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atadytic19
I love grit. And how can you not love affordability. I like Phillies charm.
I'm not sure if I offended but my prior post but I do wish Philly the best.
When I visit cities it's the oldest, grittiest or roughest areas that peak my interest. Although I love trees, I do not like block after block of spotless concrete.
I always visit downtown when I visit Vegas.
The stench of the French Quarter brings a joy to my heart.
New York City's 'wildlife' intrigues me.
If I had to pick the top 6 urban cores I would like to live it would have to be New York, Philly, Boston, Baltimore, New Orleans and San Francisco. No particular order
(emphasis added)
It's a shame that more people don't see things the way you do.
However: I find the barrenness of many rowhouse blocks in this city something of a downer. I'm with TreePhilly in believing that a bigger tree canopy in the city - ours is the lowest of all the major East Coast cities - would make this place look a helluva lot better.
*Edited further to add: I forgot that our elite university actually has two teaching hospitals: the pediatrics faculty at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania hold appointments at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, the nation's first pediatric hospital - and either the best or second-best children's hospital in the country, depending on who's doing the ranking and the year.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 04-02-2020 at 02:47 PM..
People have rapidly grown so accustomed to new and luxurious in cities that Philly rubs people the wrong way and leads them to a host of illogical assumptions about the importance or health of the city.
More than that, though, is the fact that many other cities get a "pass" for plenty of less-than-amazing or not-exactly-glamorous neighborhoods. Not all of New York is UES or Park Slope, not all of San Francisco is Haight-Ashbury, and not all of DC is Dupont Circle, etc. etc. There are gradients of success in every city.
Atlanta over Boston??? I’ll give you that. Atlanta over Houston??? You can make a strong case for Houston over Atlanta cause of the energy industry. But Seattle/Dallas and Philly?
I mean Atlanta is far from a slouch. For the past couple of decades it’s been the #1 city for film and television. You have the busiest airport in the world there. You have Fortune 500 companies like Cocoa-Cola/Chicfila/Home Depot/etc. It’s the biggest influence in urban music today and has been for over a decade now. Home of Delta. All of those factors extend way beyond regional. I’m just saying, let’s not completely write off Atlanta.
Yeah, and adding to Atlanta's case for 6 or definitely 7/8...Depending on your views about Boston and Houston:
I'dd like to add that Atlanta is also home to:
The CDC
Turner Broadcasting (TNT, TBS)
The Weather Channel
UPS
Porsche (North American HQ)
Mercedes-Benz USA
AT&T Mobility
One of the largest Federal Reserve Banks in the nation.
We can downplay the importance of Atlanta all we want on city-data, but to say that the city is below 8 on its worst day is just silly.
Again, I can honestly see arguments for Boston and Houston.
Yeah, and adding to Atlanta's case for 6 or definitely 7/8...Depending on your views about Boston and Houston:
I'dd like to add that Atlanta is also home to:
The CDC
Turner Broadcasting (TNT, TBS)
The Weather Channel
UPS
Porsche (North American HQ)
Mercedes-Benz USA
AT&T Mobility
One of the largest Federal Reserve Banks in the nation.
We can downplay the importance of Atlanta all we want on city-data, but to say that the city is below 8 on its worst day is just silly.
Again, I can honestly see arguments for Boston and Houston.
Again, no. To say Boston and Houston have cases ahead of Atlanta but not Philadelphia and Dallas is short sighted.
Atlanta placing 9th in this group vs. 7th is not "downplaying its importance", its a very crowded field of cities, and out of this group the only city that is a clear #6 is Boston, but I see a lot of Atlanta posters thinking Atlanta is in a different league than Philadelphia, Houston and Dallas when in reality its not...
Again, no. To say Boston and Houston have cases ahead of Atlanta but not Philadelphia and Dallas is short sighted.
Atlanta placing 9th in this group vs. 7th is not "downplaying its importance", its a very crowded field of cities, and out of this group the only city that is a clear #6 is Boston, but I see a lot of Atlanta posters thinking Atlanta is in a different league than Philadelphia, Houston and Dallas when in reality its not...
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I definitely don't see Philly ahead of any city in this poll but Seattle and maybe Miami.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I definitely don't see Philly ahead of any city in this poll but Seattle and maybe Miami.
I would like to hear your thoughts though.
Lets say Seattle and Miami are last in this poll. So between Boston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Houston and Dallas, what exactly doesn't make Philadelphia belong according to you?
Just off the top of my head...
Philadelphia has a very large economy, higher GDP per capita than all those cities but Boston.
A massive amount of prestigious institutions, medical centers and a highly dominant player in the healthcare industry.
Several of the nations largest public and private corporations, finance firms, and law firms.
A very large albeit silent presence in the media market due to Comcast/NBC universal.
A very large amount of the nations most prestigious museums, trusts and philanthropic organizations, not to mention an irreplaceable status in American history, art, culture, etc.
None of these cities play a huge role politically, but Joe Biden (likely the next president) has his entire campaign and philanthropic efforts centered in Philadelphia.
I'm not saying these characteristics don't exist in the other cities, but I cannot find a reason for the life of me why Philadelphia would not at the very least be #8. Not everyone prefers or likes Philadelphia and some find it gritty, but lets not downplay its longstanding significance.
What do you value? Command and control? Logistics? Production? Cultural influence? The list would be very different depending on what you're counting.
If you're weighing cultural influence, then Coke and Home Depot (or my city's Starbucks and Costco) are influential but completely replaceable if they went away tomorrow.
I tend to value logistics and its infrastructure a bit less. You could argue that Cheyenne is important because it has a major freeway intersection but I'm not going to. On the other hand, logistics where the country is seriously limited would be important, like the big ports. Point to Houston.
The CDC point is useful for Atlanta. I'd guess it would be #3 or $4 in the COVID fight. In terms of general public health research funding (NIH), Boston is the biggest, followed by Seattle as a distant #2 with Philly close at #3. In addition to research, Seattle plays a substantial leadership role due to organizations like the UW and Gates Foundation.
Our other strong point, if it matters, would be the military. Few metros could fight a war. Our case is best if we can use our CSA.
What do you value? Command and control? Logistics? Production? Cultural influence? The list would be very different depending on what you're counting.
If you're weighing cultural influence, then Coke and Home Depot (or my city's Starbucks and Costco) are influential but completely replaceable if they went away tomorrow.
Riffing off this because "culture" is a very broad term.
The "culture" you're referring to here is our patterns, means and tastes when it comes to consumption. "Third places," big-box retailers, iconic beverages - those all relate to our powers of spending.
"Culture" also refers to - and I think more commonly refers to - the things that influence the way we see ourselves, our in-groups, and our society. These are the province of the entertainment and media industries. Tyler Perry, Southern hip-hop, grunge rock, flannel shirts, "TSOP," M. Night Shyamalan - people and phenomena like these speak to this sort of cultural influence.
Then there's the older sense of the term, which refers to those things that are supposed to elevate us, educate us and in some way make us better (and maybe more refined). Symphony orchestras, museums, works of art, higher education (sort of) - those fall into this category.
Call me a snob if you must, but I think the latter two senses of the term are more useful than the first one. Sure, Coca-Cola is something that screams "America!" to absolutely the entire world, but does Home Depot or Costco have the same staying power? Our entertainment industry is probably as influential, if not more so, in telling us and the rest of the world who we are (or how we want ourselves to be seen).
There, Atlanta IMO has an edge over Seattle, which is not to say that Seattle hasn't made its mark in those realms. This is also something where Philadelphia plays a role: "Rocky" has become an archetype, a symbol of a certain segment of the country, one that's fighting to retain its dignity. And the guy who created (and played) him, Sylvester Stallone, did a good job of further universalizing it when he restarted the series with films about the son of his nemesis, Apollo Creed.
As for capital-C Culture (the last one), well, I think Philly has it over the other two.
Yeah, and adding to Atlanta's case for 6 or definitely 7/8...Depending on your views about Boston and Houston:
I'dd like to add that Atlanta is also home to:
The CDC
Turner Broadcasting (TNT, TBS)
The Weather Channel
UPS
Porsche (North American HQ)
Mercedes-Benz USA
AT&T Mobility
One of the largest Federal Reserve Banks in the nation.
We can downplay the importance of Atlanta all we want on city-data, but to say that the city is below 8 on its worst day is just silly.
Again, I can honestly see arguments for Boston and Houston.
No one is downplaying Atlanta. A ranking in the Top 8-12 is not bad at all.
I just don't see any argument to put it above Boston.
This thread is done. Top 6 is set. NY, LA, DC, Chicago, SF and Boston should be a given at this point.
7 I would give to Houston based on Energy, Ports Manufacturing, GDP, Diversity etc
The rest is hard for me. I tend to see strong arguments for Philly, Atl and DFW.
Good arguments for Atl and Philly were put forth and Dallas Fort Worth is an all arounder with a massive population and GDP and huge airport. Yes ATL is a huge Hub but DFW is massive too. The reason I would choose ATL and Philly over DFW because although DFW is a jack of all trades it is a master of none. It's like Denver on steroids. So 8 and 9 would imo be between Philly and ATL.
I tend to lump Seattle in this group too. Although I think it would be in the last of this group.
So I tend to see it like this:
1. NY
2. LA
3. DC
4. Chicago
5. San Francisco
6. Boston
7. Houston
8. Philadelphia
9. Atlanta
10. DFW
11. Miami
12. Seattle
Then Detroit, Phoenix, Denver, MSP, all Duke it out.
And let's not forget San Diego, Tampa, Cleveland, Baltimore, Orlando, Cincinnati, Las Vegas, Nashville, New Orleans, Milwaukee, Charlotte... All great cities
So being in the Top 12 trust me that's not hating at all.
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