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Those things manifest a lot differently in a much larger state like Florida though. I guess that's why the OP decided to focus on a subset of the state like Jacksonville in comparison with RI.
Every New England state is suffers from the same issues more or less . Massachusetts sees population declines if you take away just Cambridge and Boston....
The only area where Providence is worse than the other New England states is public schools. But MA CT RI all have similar bad infrastructure and housing stock. MA actually has much worse violent crime and CT has more blight, a weaker economy and even worse population decline.
Are small established New England states without issue? Maine and Vermont have been having a rough go for years and I think Maine is actually the poorest start in Mew England. It’s really just the Boston area and some spillover into Southern NH that keeps the regions sterling reputation intact.
This is not to say there are other economic engine and other desirable places in New England to live -but they all have issues.
Every New England state is suffers from the same issues more or less . Massachusetts sees population declines if you take away just Cambridge and Boston....
The only area where Providence is worse than the other New England states is public schools. But MA CT RI all have similar bad infrastructure and housing stock. MA actually has much worse violent crime and CT has more blight, a weaker economy and even worse population decline.
Are small established New England states without issue? Maine and Vermont have been having a rough go for years and I think Maine is actually the poorest start in Mew England. It’s really just the Boston area and some spillover into Southern NH that keeps the regions sterling reputation intact.
This is not to say there are other economic engine and other desirable places in New England to live -but they all have issues.
Slow population growth, worn infrastructure (those New England winters are brutal I'm sure), and tons of older house stock I'm aware of since they are Northern states. I know crime is problematic in places like Bridgeport that haven't fared as well when it comes to deindustrialization and whatnot, and Connecticut in particular was having it rough with their budget crisis as firms were moving back into the city (which means the pandemic might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the state). But with RI, I'm guessing the state's fortunes pretty much rise and fall with Providence and although I don't know much about the place, I know it's the state capital, has a respected Ivy League university, and boasts a few legacy industries and with the old wealth there and elsewhere in the state along with posh leisure destinations, I wouldn't have expected the state to have the level of problems that it does.
I've spent a little time in Vermont and from what I could tell, the infrastructure was decent, it's fairly clean and green, and I didn't see any urban decay or rough-ish areas in Burlington. That's not to say it's perfect or especially prosperous but is it performing as bad as RI on most fronts?
Slow population growth, worn infrastructure (those New England winters are brutal I'm sure), and tons of older house stock I'm aware of since they are Northern states. I know crime is problematic in places like Bridgeport that haven't fared as well when it comes to deindustrialization and whatnot, and Connecticut in particular was having it rough with their budget crisis as firms were moving back into the city (which means the pandemic might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the state). But with RI, I'm guessing the state's fortunes pretty much rise and fall with Providence and although I don't know much about the place, I know it's the state capital, has a respected Ivy League university, and boasts a few legacy industries and with the old wealth there and elsewhere in the state along with posh leisure destinations, I wouldn't have expected the state to have the level of problems that it does.
I've spent a little time in Vermont and from what I could tell, the infrastructure was decent, it's fairly clean and green, and I didn't see any urban decay or rough-ish areas in Burlington. That's not to say it's perfect or especially prosperous but is it performing as bad as RI on most fronts?
Vermont is not Burlington though-that's a college town. While it is fairly clean and green it has a very old population and a weak (declining) economic base. You can't eat scenery. In many areas, the infrastructure is just lacking and old. But isn't used as much as denser states in southern NE. Thus its less worn. You're gonna have a much better shot at a decent job and amenities in RI than VT. Literally every state in the entire US and Puerto Rico has a larger GDP than Vermont
"At $35 billion, Vermont has the smallest economy in the U.S. Its five-year average unemployment rate of 2.9% was the fourth lowest among states, but Vermont suffers from business costs that are 12% above the national average. The state’s economic outlook is also weak with job and income growth expected to badly lag the rest of the country over the next five years. Vermont is the leading producer of maple syrup in the country." Median Household income Rhode Island is 8k higher than Vermont and $13k higher than Maine. Poverty rates are identical. RI also has a higher percentage of college grads than Maine.
Most of your read on RI is accurate though. In some ways, Northern RI is not all that dissimilar from Northern NJ. The difference is its old money is located to the south of the state (not just Newport). And there's not much "new money" at the northern end of the state-Woonsocket, Central Fall are worse than Providence (particularly with blight) and Pawtucket is only a little better. Johnston Cranston Warwick North Providence are all townie-middle class vibes with some lower-middle-class areas. Providence and East Providence still have the trendy rooftop bars etc. But the thing is it-like CT- can remake its economy fast enough. So it's heavily service sector.
A place like VT or NH its just not nearly as urban as southern NE so the problems don't play out as clearly-albeit Manchester NH is pretty grungy and worn down with some rougher areas in housing projects etc. Not a pretty city.
But yea-places like Bridgeport, Waterbury, New Haven, Willimantic, Hartford, Lawrence, Fitchburg, Springfield, Brockton, Lynn, New Bedford, Holyoke, Fall River all have serious issues with crime and divestment-more so than Providence. Maybe not Lynn, anymore.
As Bert said Providence does have an insular townie vibe and more catholic church influence than MA. It hasn't done enough to empower and assimilate its Cambodian, Liberian, Dominican, Guatemalan, and Cape Verdean populations. Because those groups suffer economically and socially the state cannot rise. I think many in RI politics don't really grasp this concept. The minority population must have some modicum of financial, education and professional success if the date is ever to improve economically-see: Massachusetts.
States like NV MD GA TX where immigrants fare better and live more traditionally middle-class lifestyles are healthier as a whole=-right now RI (and most of NE) has failed to realize its potential in that respect. I'm not sure FL is great at this either though...Idk about Jacksonville. Jacksonville is less than 12% foreign-born it doesn't face the same issues there as urban RI.
But again this is not only an RI issue but is an issue in Connecticut and Maine as well (where there are Somalis- Lewiston/Auburn). We're looking at its demographics and saying we expect one thing o the other but its very dense (only behind NJ), urban and culturally diverse.
Sorry to go on about New England but my point is Rhode Island isn't much worse or better than a typical NE state. Culturally, its tops after MA.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 11-01-2020 at 09:52 AM..
Slow population growth, worn infrastructure (those New England winters are brutal I'm sure), and tons of older house stock I'm aware of since they are Northern states. I know crime is problematic in places like Bridgeport that haven't fared as well when it comes to deindustrialization and whatnot, and Connecticut in particular was having it rough with their budget crisis as firms were moving back into the city (which means the pandemic might turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the state). But with RI, I'm guessing the state's fortunes pretty much rise and fall with Providence and although I don't know much about the place, I know it's the state capital, has a respected Ivy League university, and boasts a few legacy industries and with the old wealth there and elsewhere in the state along with posh leisure destinations, I wouldn't have expected the state to have the level of problems that it does.
I've spent a little time in Vermont and from what I could tell, the infrastructure was decent, it's fairly clean and green, and I didn't see any urban decay or rough-ish areas in Burlington. That's not to say it's perfect or especially prosperous but is it performing as bad as RI on most fronts?
Rhode Island’s economy largely is based off education (Brown, best art/design school RISD, top culinary school Johnson and wales plus others RIC, Bryant URI etc), healthcare, tourism, cvs..
R.I. should work to market more of its coastline..outside of Newport (which is great) other areas aren’t very built up and that’s really how Rhode Islanders want it. Watch hill is a beautiful town if you can afford it but small..narragansett also great area on water..R.I. should capitalize on it’s accessible waterfront more than it does
Vermont is not Burlington though-that's a college town. While it is fairly clean and green it has a very old population and a weak (declining) economic base. You can't eat scenery. In many areas, the infrastructure is just lacking and old. But isn't used as much as denser states in southern NE. Thus its less worn. You're gonna have a much better shot at a decent job and amenities in RI than VT. Literally every state in the entire US and Puerto Rico has a larger GDP than Vermont
"At $35 billion, Vermont has the smallest economy in the U.S. Its five-year average unemployment rate of 2.9% was the fourth lowest among states, but Vermont suffers from business costs that are 12% above the national average. The state’s economic outlook is also weak with job and income growth expected to badly lag the rest of the country over the next five years. Vermont is the leading producer of maple syrup in the country." Median Household income Rhode Island is 8k higher than Vermont and $13k higher than Maine. Poverty rates are identical. RI also has a higher percentage of college grads than Maine.
Most of your read on RI is accurate though. In some ways, Northern RI is not all that dissimilar from Northern NJ. The difference is its old money is located to the south of the state (not just Newport). And there's not much "new money" at the northern end of the state-Woonsocket, Central Fall are worse than Providence (particularly with blight) and Pawtucket is only a little better. Johnston Cranston Warwick North Providence are all townie-middle class vibes with some lower-middle-class areas. Providence and East Providence still have the trendy rooftop bars etc. But the thing is it-like CT- can remake its economy fast enough. So it's heavily service sector.
A place like VT or NH its just not nearly as urban as southern NE so the problems don't play out as clearly-albeit Manchester NH is pretty grungy and worn down with some rougher areas in housing projects etc. Not a pretty city.
But yea-places like Bridgeport, Waterbury, New Haven, Willimantic, Hartford, Lawrence, Fitchburg, Springfield, Brockton, Lynn, New Bedford, Holyoke, Fall River all have serious issues with crime and divestment-more so than Providence. Maybe not Lynn, anymore.
As Bert said Providence does have an insular townie vibe and more catholic church influence than MA. It hasn't done enough to empower and assimilate its Cambodian, Liberian, Dominican, Guatemalan, and Cape Verdean populations. Because those groups suffer economically and socially the state cannot rise. I think many in RI politics don't really grasp this concept. The minority population must have some modicum of financial, education and professional success if the date is ever to improve economically-see: Massachusetts.
States like NV MD GA TX where immigrants fare better and live more traditionally middle-class lifestyles are healthier as a whole=-right now RI (and most of NE) has failed to realize its potential in that respect. I'm not sure FL is great at this either though...Idk about Jacksonville. Jacksonville is less than 12% foreign-born it doesn't face the same issues there as urban RI.
But again this is not only an RI issue but is an issue in Connecticut and Maine as well (where there are Somalis- Lewiston/Auburn). We're looking at its demographics and saying we expect one thing o the other but its very dense (only behind NJ), urban and culturally diverse.
Sorry to go on about New England but my point is Rhode Island isn't much worse or better than a typical NE state. Culturally, its tops after MA.
Ah okay...this is informative. It seems that before the immigrant wave, Providence must not have gotten much in the way of migrants from surrounding rural areas or the South during the Great Migration. Otherwise it seems the city/state would have already had experience with integrating outsiders en masse into the local culture/economy to some extent and that would have prepared them for the immigrants headed there from parts of the Global South in following years. I suppose Southern cities are better suited for such immigration with the concurrent Reverse Migration many are experiencing to varying degrees.
Ah okay...this is informative. It seems that before the immigrant wave, Providence must not have gotten much in the way of migrants from surrounding rural areas or the South during the Great Migration. Otherwise it seems the city/state would have already had experience with integrating outsiders en masse into the local culture/economy to some extent and that would have prepared them for the immigrants headed there from parts of the Global South in following years. I suppose Southern cities are better suited for such immigration with the concurrent Reverse Migration many are experiencing to varying degrees.
Rhode Islands Mill economy declined starting in 1929 and the state has never fully recovered-91 years later. Most other northern states outside of New England didn't decline until about 40 years later.
The hilly rocky soil of New England is inhospitable to large scale agriculture. The only area to attract rural migrants from the south was in the Connecticut River Valley of central CT and Southwestern MA- where its flat and fertile and tobacco grows. This explains Hartford and Springfields African American populations.
In fact, most of New England had more clear farmland in the 1600 and 1700 hundred than they do now. Beginning around 1800 much of the farmland in southern New England was abandoned and allowed to grow back into the woodland that dominates the landscape today. Rural RI this too
Rhode Island had a history of assimilating white immigrants way back in the day but they arrived during the boom years of RI. Some of the current puritan laws makes RI the most business-unfriendly state and one of the highest taxed states in the US. This is what makes it extremely hard to make headway economically for newcomers. RI is extremely crony/friendship/town oriented. My mother complains about that (she lives in RI) aspect.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 11-01-2020 at 11:55 AM..
Ah okay...this is informative. It seems that before the immigrant wave, Providence must not have gotten much in the way of migrants from surrounding rural areas or the South during the Great Migration. Otherwise it seems the city/state would have already had experience with integrating outsiders en masse into the local culture/economy to some extent and that would have prepared them for the immigrants headed there from parts of the Global South in following years. I suppose Southern cities are better suited for such immigration with the concurrent Reverse Migration many are experiencing to varying degrees.
Some of the black population is likely Cape Verdean and Caribbean back in 1980, but it was likely more African American.
Yea it was but it was just ~15-20 thousand people. Viola Davis said the grew to in truly squalid, condemned, apartments around Central Falls RI-today 87% of children in Central Falls School District qualify for free or reduced price lunch. The same was true for most black Americans in Providence and Woonsocket. It read a fairly recent report that estimated 71 % of RIs black population is non ADOS. The highest by a good margin, even over MA.
Rhode Islands Mill economy declined starting in 1929 and the state has never fully recovered-91 years later. Most other northern states outside of New England didn't decline until about 40 years later.
I figured as much as the mill industry in Boston began migrating south around the same time or even earlier, but Boston had sizable white-collar sectors like banking and insurance to fall back on. I would seem the same would be true of Providence to some extent, but on a smaller scale...or did Hartford get the early jump there?
Quote:
The hilly rocky soil of New England is inhospitable to large scale agriculture. The only area to attract rural migrants from the south was in the Connecticut River Valley of central CT and Southwestern MA- where its flat and fertile and tobacco grows. This explains Hartford and Springfields African American populations.
This makes sense as that same topography is beneficial for mills powered by water from the falls from rivers due to elevational changes--which explains why they headed for the Piedmont South with similar topography (and cheaper labor). Okay I'm starting to connect some of the dots with the information you guys are giving me which I appreciate.
Quote:
In fact, most of New England had more clear farmland in the 1600 and 1700 hundred than they do now. Beginning around 1800 much of the farmland in southern New England was abandoned and allowed to grow back into the woodland that dominates the landscape today. Rural RI this too
Rhode Island had a history of assimilating white immigrants way back in the day but they arrived during the boom years of RI. Some of the current puritan laws makes RI the most business-unfriendly state and one of the highest taxed states in the US. This is what makes it extremely hard to make headway economically for newcomers. RI is extremely crony/friendship/town oriented. My mother complains about that (she lives in RI) aspect.
It sounds like Providence/RI missed out on the WWII boom that powered the second wave of the Great Migration that began when thw nation climbed out of the Great Depression. Am I on the right track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Yea it was but it was just ~15-20 thousand people. Viola Davis said the grew to in truly squalid, condemned, apartments around Central Falls RI-today 87% of children in Central Falls School District qualify for free or reduced price lunch. The same was true for most black Americans in Providence and Woonsocket. It read a fairly recent report that estimated 71 % of RIs black population is non ADOS. The highest by a good margin, even over MA.
The fact that Viola Davis' family moved to RI when she was a little girl from her hometown only 35 min north of mine in SC escaped me. There must have been some other family member(s) up there for them to have made that particular move, considering how many larger/more industrial cities in the NEC they passed to get to RI, itself only a hop, skip, and a jump from Boston.
I figured as much as the mill industry in Boston began migrating south around the same time or even earlier, but Boston had sizable white-collar sectors like banking and insurance to fall back on. I would seem the same would be true of Providence to some extent, but on a smaller scale...or did Hartford get the early jump there?
This makes sense as that same topography is beneficial for mills powered by water from the falls from rivers due to elevational changes--which explains why they headed for the Piedmont South with similar topography (and cheaper labor). Okay I'm starting to connect some of the dots with the information you guys are giving me which I appreciate.
It sounds like Providence/RI missed out on the WWII boom that powered the second wave of the Great Migration that began when thw nation climbed out of the Great Depression. Am I on the right track?
The fact that Viola Davis' family moved to RI when she was a little girl from her hometown only 35 min north of mine in SC escaped me. There must have been some other family member(s) up there for them to have made that particular move, considering how many larger/more industrial cities in the NEC they passed to get to RI, itself only a hop, skip, and a jump from Boston.
Hartford Just developed later because it was in the country. So its more regalr shaped. Its a perfect rctangle along the CT river. Its street is more gridded. It was once the wealthiest city in the US and you can tell because even in the poorest neighborhoods triple-deckers are made with expensive brick and have much more of a setback than in similarly poor neighborhoods in Boston or Providence. Hartford developed more independently of the eastern New England Lowell-Boston-Providence economy and had more agraian qualities. It and other CT cities as well as Springfield MA were able to develop some more somewhatt modern 'flat factories' but not a ton. Hartford had a good amount of good paying highetech manufacturing well into the 1980s-the city died in the early 1990s recession and never fully rebounded. Insurance and Manufacturing have never really come back the way Hartford wanted...Then CT added state income tax and the rest is history.
Boston and Providence-but the whole NE-really were economic and cultural backwaters in their cities for many decades. Most of them still are. My dad has a friend from South Carolina who used to live in Bridgeport before he moved to Dorchester but they used to talk about how bad and blighted providence was in the 197-s and 1980s. It had lost like 100k people in 50 years in a 17 square mile cityby 1980. Burnt out high-rise housing project, extreme racial violence, minimal diversity and entirely mob-run.
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