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Baltimore metro rail kinda beats Cleveland easily. It actually serves the core of the city. Cleveland’s light rail skirts the industrial edge of Downtown and the Red Line has bastcally no useful stops between University City and Tower City (like 4.5 miles) Baltimore’s actually serves neighborhoods. Johns Hopkins, Shot Tower, Metro Center, Lexington Market actually serve the city center in a useful manner.
Baltimore is more disjointed but both individual lines are far better.
Yes, RTA's Red Line east has always been a problem. It dips too low and traditionally missed the dense neighborhoods along the Euclid-Cedar corridor. It's getting a little bit better now that Fairfax, around the E. 105-Quincy station is re-populating with mixed-use/multi-unit residences and E. 79th may show some commercial growth around what was a largely dead area ... but it is still lacking.
Plans, over the decades, for a Euclid subway/surface or elevated line (out from downtown) have fizzled for one reason or the other even though some derivation of a Euclid subway connecting to Tower City (where a grade-separated tunnel junction with the Red-Blue-Green trunkline still exists under Huron Rd just inside TC's eastern portal). The West Side leg of the Red Line to the Airport is much stronger and does serve neighborhoods: starting with its first station: dense/growing Ohio City just over the river.
Baltimore's LRT is extremely slow with street running along Howard and the area there is not showing much growth. This line can and should be dropped into a subway between North Ave and Camden Yards, making it far more effective. Yes, LRT is much longer than RTA's Blue, Green & Waterfront LRT system and carries more people. But I still like the speed and interconnectivity with the Red Line. And even though CLE-RTA has long been criticized for having 1, or mainly 1 downtown station at Tower City, the system seems to cover downtown about as well as MTA -- LRT brushes by the western fringes of downtown B'more. MTA Metro's main station at Charles Center connects better with downtown. But both lines really miss the hopping inner Harbor while RTA, at least when the friggin' Waterfront Line finally gets repaired and starts running again, directly serves the busy/growing Flats entertainment district as well as (also growing) North Coast Harbor.
So I disagree that MTA is "far better" than RTA, but you're entitled to your opinion.
Baltimore metro rail kinda beats Cleveland easily. It actually serves the core of the city. Cleveland’s light rail skirts the industrial edge of Downtown and the Red Line has bastcally no useful stops between University City and Tower City (like 4.5 miles) Baltimore’s actually serves neighborhoods. Johns Hopkins, Shot Tower, Metro Center, Lexington Market actually serve the city center in a useful manner.
Baltimore is more disjointed but both individual lines are far better.
I know I said ridership wouldn't be counted by itself, but I couldn't help but notice that, among its region, Baltimore's numbers are pretty far down there also. They are both unique cases as sub 3 million MSA's with heavy rail, and as of today, Cleveland is a 2 million MSA with more heavy rail than Los Angeles.
Baltimore crushes Cleveland in bus ridership as well (where it also performs on par with others in its region), but I"m curious to know which has a better BRT implementation.
Baltimore hasn’t “declined” in its waterfront amenities, it’s grown hilariously and the center of focus has just shifted. Yes Harbor Place was amazing in its hay day but 30 years ago but in that same Fells Point & Port Covington where warehouses/train yards and abandoned while Harbor Point/East didn’t even exist. On a city proper level, the level of waterfront development/amenities Baltimore has built and continues to build vs. Cleveland is not even remotely comparable.
Yes, Baltimore lacks Lake Erie but the Chesapeake Bay is more than adequate enough to suffice for any and all water activities and amenities (on a MSA) level. This is before we get into things like Cruise Ships or Fleet Week’s which Baltimore can and does support, and Cleveland doesn’t.
Not all Baltimore's waterfront amenities have declined in the Inner Harbor, but Harborplace definitely has. I lived in the area in the mid-90s, and Harborplace was packed with tourists and locals, alike, with restaurants and all kinds of shops -- today its kinda sad with several vacancies. The Baltimore Rouse edition, the original, is hanging on while similar ones in other cities, such as Jacksonville, were demolished over a decade ago. There is still activity in the Inner Harbor, new development has shifted to Harbor East just south of Little Italy. Harbor East is very impressive and is growing with new, large multi-unit luxury buildings all the time.
Chesapeake Bay is nice but doesn't compare with Lake Erie. The Bay can't compare with a full-size Great Lake with beaches within Cleveland proper... plus Chesapeake Bay doesn't even touch B'more city line, anyway, whereas Lake Erie is right along Cleveland's northern border, including downtown. And while the Inner Harbor has a leg-up on the Flats + North Coast Harbor in Cleveland, but to say the areas are not "remotely comparable," ... well, I'll just say you're speaking without even a remote knowledge of where Cleveland is, waterfront-wise these days...
And as far as cruises and pleasure craft: I know Baltimore Harbor has quite a few, but if you believe Cleveland is somehow lacking, boat-wise you, again, are displaying you obviously aren't familiar with Cleveland 2022.
Not all Baltimore's waterfront amenities have declined in the Inner Harbor, but Harborplace definitely has. I lived in the area in the mid-90s, and Harborplace was packed with tourists and locals, alike, with restaurants and all kinds of shops -- today its kinda sad with several vacancies. The Baltimore Rouse edition, the original, is hanging on while similar ones in other cities, such as Jacksonville, were demolished over a decade ago. There is still activity in the Inner Harbor, new development has shifted to Harbor East just south of Little Italy. Harbor East is very impressive and is growing with new, large multi-unit luxury buildings all the time.
I’m from the Baltimore area
The Inner Harbor was so packed back then because as far as waterfront development there was nothing else like it in the county let alone within Baltimore. It was literally the blueprint to modern day waterfront development.
Baltimore’s Inner Harbor doesn’t stop and end with the Harbor Place, between the USS Constellation/historic ships, Rash Field, Federal Hill, The National Aquarium, Science Center, Pier 6 pavilion and just the geographic layout of the Harbor/Skyline most still put it in the very upper tier of urban waterfront locations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Chesapeake Bay is nice but doesn't compare with Lake Erie. The Bay can't compare with a full-size Great Lake with beaches within Cleveland proper... plus Chesapeake Bay doesn't even touch B'more city line, anyway, whereas Lake Erie is right along Cleveland's northern border, including downtown. And while the Inner Harbor has a leg-up on the Flats + North Coast Harbor in Cleveland, but to say the areas are not "remotely comparable," ... well, I'll just say you're speaking without even a remote knowledge of where Cleveland is, waterfront-wise these days...
In the context of this thread, the bay provides everything Lake Erie does despite being a fraction of its size. It’s still a massive body of water. Regarding city limits the Chesapeake Bay touches the city line at Hawkins Point because the Francis Scott Key bridge is the official divider between the lower Harbor and the Chesapeake Bay, so there’s that. Then again I explicitly said the Chesapeake Bay (from a MSA level) is just as accessible as Lake Erie.
I do know what’s going on with Cleveland’s waterfront, which is why I said what I said. Yes Cleveland is greatly improving, but let’s not pretend it’s Chicago. Baltimore’s bread and butter is urban waterfront development. Theres well over a $1 billion dollars of it U/C on the harbor as of 2022 and more is breaking ground next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
And as far as cruises and pleasure craft: I know Baltimore Harbor has quite a few, but if you believe Cleveland is somehow lacking, boat-wise you, again, are displaying you obviously aren't familiar with Cleveland 2022.
When was the last time Cleveland had 900’ Carnival or Royal Caribbean cruise ship call it home port or a 400’ foreign navy ship dock in its downtown again?
I'm a homer, I admit it, so Cleveland got my vote... but these 2 are very close. Baltimore, obviously, wins this historic tip,... but otherwise?
Attractions - on a national level: Nat'l Aquarium vs. Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. There's a strong argument for both, but I think the Rock Hall is now internationally recognized and the inductions and induction ceremony is a source of worldwide interest and conversation, even when inductions aren't in Cleveland -- but the R&RHOF is closely associated with C-Town. The National Aquarium is absolutely awesome, though, and a tribute to B'More for grabbing it from DC.
As for general attractions, including hot neighborhoods, I feel Cleveland has a substantial leg up: E. 4th/lower Euclid/Gateway, The Flats (more, below), Ohio City, Tremont, University Circle (one of the finest and most beautiful museum/arts/education centers in the nation. Playhouse Square theaters; Edgewater Park (more below), Little Italy (beats B'More's LI, though Baltimore's is nice)...
Universities - Yeah, Case Western is a very, very good school... but it ain't Hopkins.
Waterfront - "Baltimore and it’s not even close.".
30 years ago (even 25), I would have agreed... today, I strongly disagree. Yes, I'd still give Baltimore an edge... but it's now a very slight edge -- a tribute to Cleveland's robust waterfront growth and Balto's slight decline -- and that Baltimore edge is only because of the surviving retail in Harborplace whereas Cleveland's Flats (my main comparator, has none. Aside from retail, it's a very close call. The aforementioned National Aquarium is a huge get for B'more, no doubt... In terms of restaurants, clubs, and sheer fun, Cleveland's Flats wins easily IMHO. And while the Inner Harbor has more paddleboats, kayaks, and other small craft, Cleveland's waterfront is gaining with similar boat rentals... and even jet skis, too (but those are more geared to adjacent Lake Erie -- an asset Baltimore lacks. And yes we all know Cleveland's ugly industrialization of its waterfront (and yes, the Cuyahoga River oil slick/bridge fire of 53 years ago), it has really been cleaned up in recent decades -- you now see crew shells along with yachts and other pleasure craft ... and the football field length oar freighters, too.
... and Lake Erie now has North Coast Harbor, next to the Rock Hall and Great Lakes Science Center, which has become a real people place, too, with the marina, boat rentals, the USS Cod (submarine), Goodtime III local cruise ship and many sailboats, water and jet skiing, etc. And with the massive EPA-Lake Erie cleanup of recent decades, Edgewater Park has emerged as a strong regional beach -- complete with a 4-year-old grand, 2-level beachhouse. The Edgewater pier along with the adjacent beachfront bolders are still an attraction.
Last summer I texted photos from busy, blue-water Edgewater beach to friends, and they honestly believed we were in Florida or Cali.
MSA Mass Transit - Baltimore wins... largely because it is in the electrified NE Corridor and is connected to DC with 2 commuter railroads along with Acela/Amtrak, which also links the entire East Coast inside a couple of hours. Even though MTA has more route mileage (both cities, which are small major metros, are blessed to have both heavy and light rail), I do like Cleveland's Rapid better. The Cleveland Rapid is better integrated and easier to use. The MTA and Light Rail are disjointed operations that don't even interface with one another. I do like the Baltimore Metro Line, though. Thoroughly modern, like its DC neighbor, and super fast.
Agree with a lot of this, but I do disagree (subjectively, of course) with some of this.
No offense to you or other Cleveland "homers", but I do think some of you oversell the "hype" of your "hyped" neighborhoods. I do enjoy Cleveland, but I don't personally feel as if Tremont, for example, is anything special. It reminds me a lot of Pittsburgh's Point Breeze neighborhood in/around the Reynolds Street business district, and Point Breeze isn't really a trendy/hot area here at all. It's also unfortunate in that Tremont is about a mile as the crow flies from Downtown Cleveland, but if you want to walk between let's say Professor Avenue (Tremont) and The Arcade (Downtown Cleveland), Google Maps only offers you generally long and unpleasant pedestrian connections. Not having a better pedestrian link between Tremont and Downtown Cleveland when they are so close is a major drawback to me.
I also enjoy the amazing authenticity and ambiance of Cleveland's Little Italy, but it is TINY---with the bulk of the action in just three short blocks along Mayfield Road. Pittsburgh's Little Italy (Bloomfield) is very large and heavily-populated, but it sucks now as a Little Italy because it has become so socioculturally heterogeneous and gentrified that only trace remnants of Italian-American life remains there. Baltimore's Little Italy feels authentic, too (like Cleveland's), and is also larger than Cleveland's. At the very best I would personally consider the Little Italy's to be a "draw" between Cleveland and Baltimore (with Pittsburgh's admittedly being among the worst in the country). Baltimore's Little Italy is a 10-minute walk from the heart of Downtown. Great. Cleveland's Little Italy is a 10-minute walk from the heart of University Circle (Cleveland's "eds and meds" neighborhood). Great. Both offer public transit and are relatively safe areas.
I won't argue with you about University Circle. It's gorgeous, and I prefer its setting to that of Baltimore's "eds and meds" area (Wyman Park). It is a nice "park in the city" setting for Cleveland. Baltimore's areas adjacent to its art museum and Johns Hopkins are akin to Pittsburgh's Oakland neighborhood with its very urban/dense ambiance (or St. Louis's Central West End for that matter, too). Totally different feel from University Circle.
I haven't been to The Flats in years (mainly because it has zero appeal to me), so I'll take your word for how awesome it is as an urban neighborhood now.
I do enjoy Ohio City, and it gets better every time I visit. Nice neighborhood.
Baltimore's urban neighborhoods are no slouch, though, and you can probably consider neighborhoods to be a "draw" overall. Baltimore has Little Italy, Canton, Fells Point, Mt. Vernon, Charles Village, Remington, Wyman Park, Federal Hill, and Locust Point. In no way, shape, or form do Cleveland's urban neighborhoods blow Baltimore's out of the water in terms of attractiveness to tourists/outsiders.
I do think Johns Hopkins > Case Western (even if not by a large margin). I also think Baltimore's waterfront amenities overall > Cleveland's (but Cleveland is improving).
I didn't vote in this poll because I quite frankly think it's a draw as someone who lives between both Cleveland and Baltimore and likes both cities.
Attractions - Depends on what you are looking for. I would give Cleveland the edge on formal tourist attractions. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is fairly unique and the Cleveland Art Museum is one of the tops in the county. Cleveland has a better skyline, but I would say their downtowns are both somewhat lackluster. When you look at the neighborhoods, Baltimore is a far more urban/walkable city. Cleveland has a couple neighborhoods with smallish commercial strips, but there aren't really dense urban legacy city neighborhoods on the scale of places like Federal Hill, Fells Point, Mt. Vernon, Hamden, Canton, etc. Even with all of its blight and disinvestment, Baltimore retains of the finest collection of urban architecture. Tons of dense rowhouses, prewar apartment buildings and intact commercial districts.
Universities - Probably Baltimore. Cleveland really only has CW and Cleveland State in the city.
Waterfront - Baltimore has done a better job of providing access to its waterfront. Lots of parks and urban access points across the city. Cleveland has a couple access points, but generally it doesn't leverage it's water setting as much as it could. I would also add Baltimore has a longer waterfront season so there is a longer season for boating, kayaking, walking along the water. Although, I think Cleveland's great lakes setting is more spectacular and having a beach is unique.
MSA Mass Transit - Baltimore. It appears to have a bigger regional rail network and the city is far denser and more walkable which makes mass transit more usable.
Waterfront - Baltimore has done a better job of providing access to its waterfront. Lots of parks and urban access points across the city. Cleveland has a couple access points, but generally it doesn't leverage it's water setting as much as it could. I would also add Baltimore has a longer waterfront season so there is a longer season for boating, kayaking, walking along the water. Although, I think Cleveland's great lakes setting is more spectacular and having a beach is unique.
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This is what I was thinking, and I can't figure out for the life of me why there isn't more general hype around Cleveland's lakefront setting. I went to a concert at the flats in high school and it felt like the coolest thing ever compared to Columbus.
This is what I was thinking, and I can't figure out for the life of me why there isn't more general hype around Cleveland's lakefront setting. I went to a concert at the flats in high school and it felt like the coolest thing ever compared to Columbus.
Mostly because it’s waterfront is in the neighborhoods rather than Downtown, Baltimore has relatively small amounts of waterfront but it’s literally all in central visitor neighborhoods. While Cleveland,, has an Airport, And Seaport Downtown. With basically one recreational Quay
Mostly because it’s waterfront is in the neighborhoods rather than Downtown, Baltimore has relatively small amounts of waterfront but it’s literally all in central visitor neighborhoods. While Cleveland,, has an Airport, And Seaport Downtown. With basically one recreational Quay
The main promenade is 8 miles long. Granted the southern waterfront has large swaths still undeveloped/industrial lots compared to the northern side which almost fully built out outside a handful of parking lots.
The middle branch where Port Covington, Westport, Cherry Hill etc.. boarder has an addition 11 miles of developable waterfront so small is not the word I’d use for scale.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Baltimore definitely has the better waterfront, I can't imagine why this is still even being argued. Have some shops closed down sure, but that's cosmetic and can switch at the drop of a dime. If Baltimore gets it's act together downtown it could compete for best waterfront in the Northeast after NYC with only a few minor upgrades.
Cleveland has the better skyline, and Lake Erie is beautiful in warm months, but it's not as navigable a waterfront to other areas like you can get to from Baltimore. Even Carnival cruise ships dock there in Baltimore.
I'd be curious to hear from Joakim3 on your view by comparison to San Diego, and what Baltimore could learn from the waterfront there. I was just in DT Miami for a few weeks and staying near Bayside, I couldn't help but think about Baltimore, and the Inner Harbor as I walked around there. The city needs some major changes to happen overall to become safer, and more desirable, but I think the Harbor can still be a main attractor to visitors as always.
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