Pittsburgh vs. St. Louis Vs. Philadelphia... (map, cons, downtown, market)
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If part of OP's criteria was access to the greater northeast region, I might agree with the "Philadelphia AND ITS NOT CLOSE" symphony, but that wasn't specified so I can't understand why Pittsburgh wouldn't be the top pick.
Philadelphia has more transit, but is it better?
Here's a recent study ranking Philly as more car dependent than Pittsburgh:
As far as a natural setting, does Philly have any notable scenery beyond rivers and buildings? IMO, Pittsburgh is easily the most scenic city off the west coast (city, not parks 100 miles outside of the city).
Its true you're getting more city for not that much more money with Philly, but I don't think that's what OP is looking for, for that reason I say:
1. Pittsburgh
2. St. Louis
3. Philadelphia
That's one of those clickbait surveys websites send out to get people like me to mention them in articles like that one, but the methodology at least strikes me as defensible (how much driving drivers do in each city per year on average, the average number of miles put on each vehicle per year, percentage of workers who commute to their jobs by car and percentage of workers in households with two or more cars). But it does focus on cars to the exclusion of everything else. Pittsburghers may drive less not because they walk or use transit more but because they don't have to travel as far in order to get where they want to go from where they live.
Yes, it's surprising to me as well to see Pittsburgh ranked ahead of Philadelphia in that survey. But I'd be curious to see the numbers they crunched, for Philadelphia ranks eighth, right behind #7 Pittsburgh. (#1 on this survey is Seattle, with New York second and San Jose third. Rankings are by metro area.)
I do recall seeing surveys that show that Philadelphia's CBD has one of the highest percentages of workers who walk to their jobs, and I'd say that might be an equally valid metric for measuring car dependence or lack thereof. Before the pandemic, mass transit carried more than half of all Center City workers to their jobs as well, a share that's on the high side for US cities.
Then there are the Walk Score rankings of US cities (cities only) for walkability, transit quality and bikeability. The WalkScore algorithms are proprietary but widely accepted as valid. Philadelphia ranks #8 among most walkable cities and #6 for quality of transit (the algorithm measures the density of transit routes around given locations). Seattle, by way of comparison, ranks ninth for walkability, and Pittsburgh doesn't crack the top 10 on any of these metrics.
Put bluntly, there may be a bunch of reasons to prefer Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, but I'm not sure that the ability to live car-free is really one of them.
As far as a natural setting, does Philly have any notable scenery beyond rivers and buildings? IMO, Pittsburgh is easily the most scenic city off the west coast (city, not parks 100 miles outside of the city).
Addressing this separately:
For spectacular topography, only San Francisco rivals Pittsburgh among US cities, and the entrance to the Golden Triangle from the south (via the Fort Pitt Tunnel and Bridge) is the most jaw-dropping of any US downtown gateway.
But your parenthetical pretty much ignores Philadelphia's park system, encompassing some 7,800 acres of parkland. Besides Fairmount Park itself, which embraces the Schuylkill as it flows into the city from the northwest (the park was created to protect the city's water supply in the early 1800s), it includes the 1,800-acre Wissahickon Valley in the northwest part of the city, which I would argue is one of the best urban wildernesses in the country. (I live within a half-hour walk of this park and a historic 17th-century settlement called Rittenhouse Town, site of America's first paper mill, contained within it.)
City-Data: The only place in the known universe where people will unironically suggest Pittsburgh is easier to live in without a car.
LOL. It's true.
Pittsburgh has a number of great neighborhoods for walkability and car-free living, but the notion that it's on a similar scale or intensity as Philadelphia is patently silly.
For spectacular topography, only San Francisco rivals Pittsburgh among US cities, and the entrance to the Golden Triangle from the south (via the Fort Pitt Tunnel and Bridge) is the most jaw-dropping of any US downtown gateway.
But your parenthetical pretty much ignores Philadelphia's park system, encompassing some 7,800 acres of parkland. Besides Fairmount Park itself, which embraces the Schuylkill as it flows into the city from the northwest (the park was created to protect the city's water supply in the early 1800s), it includes the 1,800-acre Wissahickon Valley in the northwest part of the city, which I would argue is one of the best urban wildernesses in the country. (I live within a half-hour walk of this park and a historic 17th-century settlement called Rittenhouse Town, site of America's first paper mill, contained within it.)
Is there a city in the United States that doesn't have urban parks?
I haven't been to these places, but looking at photos/videos, they look like any random part of Pittsburgh you would see simply driving or walking around the city. There's pretty much nowhere you can go in the entire Pittsburgh metro area that doesn't have hills/bridges/waterways, valleys, etc. Riding the T into the south hills is a scenic attraction unto itself.
Also, San Franciscos' in-city topography is mostly hills, which Pittsburgh has along with so much more. So I don't regard it as a rival.
Is there a city in the United States that doesn't have urban parks?
But you posed the question of Philadelphia having any scenery other than rivers and buildings, and the answer is unequivocally yes. And the Wissahickon Valley is much more unique than any standard city park. It's nearly completely undisturbed and uncultivated forested gorge on the edge of a major city, which literally serves as the backdrop to the entire Northwest section of the city.
It wasn't meant to be a comparison to Pittsburgh or San Francisco, but the fact of the matter is yes, that scenery exists.
I think because I am so familiar with Pennsylvania, that it is what I am leaning towards to begin with. I know that Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are two very different cities, but they compliment the two halves of the state well. Pittsburgh still offers those dense and walkable urban neighborhoods, but many of them are not served by transit like neighborhoods in Philadelphia. There are sections of the East End of Pittsburgh that has the busway which acts like rail, but it is still a decent walk from many of the eastern neighborhoods to any station. Pittsburgh does have higher transit ridership than many other cities, but I think it could do much better if certain flatter sections of the city were served by some sort of rail like Lawrenceville/Strip District and Uptown. Even in Bloomfield there is no station on the busway.
SEPTA on the other hand seems to have good coverage over most areas of the city. One thing that I question is the headway between trains going from the NW to Center City. How long does it take to get to Center City on the Chestnut Hill East/West lines? I have been on SEPTA before, but only in the immediate Center City neighborhoods. Is commuting better on the Manayunk/Norristown line in say Manayunk or East Falls vs Germantown on the Chestnut Hill line?
I still plan to get out to St. Louis some time this year. The city still seems underrated based on my research so far, but I do worry about a bit of isolation to other areas. It really does seem like a really good deal as far as a price range goes.
Someone earlier in the thread spoke about proximity to the Northeast. I do have family in New York, so that is nice, but flights are quick and the nice thing about NE Ohio/Western PA is the day trips to many parts of the Northeast are fairly easy or they are a very quick flight. Philadelphia's position to New York and DC is a really nice added benefit.
I just want to make sure I am not limiting myself to other areas of the country. Some people gave out other suggestions, but based on my OP, do you think I am leaving certain cities off my list that I should consider?
I live in Pittsburgh and have been very happy here as a left-leaning gay Millennial male. I found love here. I bought my first home here in 2020 for $54,900 (and it was in move-in condition with a fenced-in yard and a 1-car detached garage). My property taxes are next to nothing annually. Violent crime has become an issue here, but the majority of it remains targeted in nature (i.e. gangs, beefs, feuds, drugs, domestics, etc.) I have made friends here. I have a career here. I wish it was less cloudy in the winter months. Surface street traffic is minimal. Interstate traffic is congested. The surrounding scenery is gorgeous. Our skyline is amazing.
I am originally from Eastern PA. I do like Philadelphia as well, and overall it DOES offer a lot more than Pittsburgh. It is also a LOT more expensive than Pittsburgh. Philadelphia is cheap by I-95 Corridor standards, but it's not "cheap" overall. I mean can you buy a move-in ready home in the city proper in a safe neighborhood there for <$100,000 like you can in Pittsburgh?
Thank you for the response. I know that when it comes to purchasing a home, Philadelphia is significantly more expensive than Pittsburgh, but I will say, I have found rents in good neighborhoods to be pretty similar. Everything you are saying about Pittsburgh I agree with. I was just there this past weekend. One of my concerns is, even though the surrounding area is very pretty, I do worry about the conservative mindset of Western Pennsylvania. I have the same concern with all of Missouri, and I would say that Western PA is about as conservative as Missouri it seems. Pittsburgh City itself is a different story, I get that. Eastern PA on the other hand still has great areas for weekend getaways and hiking, but not nearly as conservative.
BRNorth: If you're still following this, I can say that you will be able to afford a decent apartment in an older house or apartment building in Germantown, for I live in an $875/mo studio apartment in a ~1900 Tudor Revival twin on its west side that I ended up taking after the $1,000/mo 1br on the same floor got rented out from under me.*
Pittsburgh is indeed way underrated, and I'd trade our University City for Oakland there in a heartbeat. But Philadelphia really is on a level above it overall, and if you can swing it, I think you will find it offers just about everything you want. And given your housing budget, I think you can swing it. I've lived in Germantown for almost 10 years (it will be 10 years 3/1), and I think the neighborhood is one of the coolest in the city.
I've also been known to say that "Philadelphia is underrated, and nobody underrates it more than the locals." If you find yourself attracted to the "bright lights, big city" East Coast vibe, this city offers it for less than any other you might consider.
Me, btw: GBM journalist, age 64, who's fairly well known in both the Gaybrorhood and the media community. Also a native Missourian, born and raised in the state's answer to Pittsburgh (Kansas City, which, even though it's now the state's largest city, has traditionally played second fiddle to St. Louis, which remains the bigger metro).
The answer to your question "What outdoor attractions does St. Louis have beyond a nice city park system?" is: The Ozarks are a little closer to St. Louis than the Poconos are to Philadelphia, and the 'Zarks are the great outdoor playground of the Central Plains states. The centerpiece is a lake formed by damming the Osage River to light the lights of St. Louis in the 1920s, but there are many other state parks and wilderness lands away from the Lake of the Ozarks itself. (Besides, the Poconos are filled with man-made lakes, including its largest, which was created to do the same thing for Allentown that the Lake of the Ozarks does for St. Louis at around the same time.)
*If something like this appeals to you and you do decide to move here, DM me and I'll put you in touch with my landlord, who I was friends with before I started renting from him. He owns several properties in Germantown.
Thank you for the response, Market. I will send you a DM at some point and I appreciate your insight.
I think because I am so familiar with Pennsylvania, that it is what I am leaning towards to begin with. I know that Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are two very different cities, but they compliment the two halves of the state well. Pittsburgh still offers those dense and walkable urban neighborhoods, but many of them are not served by transit like neighborhoods in Philadelphia. There are sections of the East End of Pittsburgh that has the busway which acts like rail, but it is still a decent walk from many of the eastern neighborhoods to any station. Pittsburgh does have higher transit ridership than many other cities, but I think it could do much better if certain flatter sections of the city were served by some sort of rail like Lawrenceville/Strip District and Uptown. Even in Bloomfield there is no station on the busway.
SEPTA on the other hand seems to have good coverage over most areas of the city. One thing that I question is the headway between trains going from the NW to Center City. How long does it take to get to Center City on the Chestnut Hill East/West lines? I have been on SEPTA before, but only in the immediate Center City neighborhoods. Is commuting better on the Manayunk/Norristown line in say Manayunk or East Falls vs Germantown on the Chestnut Hill line?
I still plan to get out to St. Louis some time this year. The city still seems underrated based on my research so far, but I do worry about a bit of isolation to other areas. It really does seem like a really good deal as far as a price range goes.
Someone earlier in the thread spoke about proximity to the Northeast. I do have family in New York, so that is nice, but flights are quick and the nice thing about NE Ohio/Western PA is the day trips to many parts of the Northeast are fairly easy or they are a very quick flight. Philadelphia's position to New York and DC is a really nice added benefit.
I just want to make sure I am not limiting myself to other areas of the country. Some people gave out other suggestions, but based on my OP, do you think I am leaving certain cities off my list that I should consider?
Sure. You’re welcome.
Clarifying a few things that may help you. None of the 3 places you mentioned, are going to have great public transit. St. Louis has light rail and I suggest riding it when you visit. It’s good, especially in the central corridor. It just needs more expansion, to be more comprehensive, North/South etc…Amtrak runs to KC and Chicago. The latter one is particularly popular. I’ve done it before several times.
It is farther away to go from St. Louis to other major metros. Examples: Chicago is 4 to 4.5 hrs, KC is 3.5 hrs, Ozarks are 3, Indy 3.5 hrs Nashville 4 hrs, Milwaukee 5.5, Cincy 5, Memphis 4 hrs, Columbia 2 hrs, Louisville 3.5 2 hrs etc….all of them are more often weekend trips as opposed to day trips. These are some trips I made many times, all easy weekend trips. There are other shorter side trips, wineries, caves, outdoor things etc…for excursions.
St. Louis, Kansas City, Columbia, Missouri are blue parts of Missouri. The rural and smaller towns are not. Missouri is a red state, formerly a swing state. Ohio for example is a red state, formerly. swing state. But those 3 metro areas are blue overall in that state.
I have also lived in several of the largest metro areas. (NYC, L.A. Chicago etc…) When I lived in Chicago, I had friends in the burbs who made it to the city less than a half a dozen times a year. I had others who did it a few to several times a week. (I lived in the city but spent time all over the metro) When I lived in Milwaukee, I frequently traveled the 90 minutes (drive or train) to Chicago and back. I know others who did this. But I also know many who would maybe get there once a year. What I am trying to say is that living in close proximity to other major metros only matters if one uses it. Taking the train from Philly to NYC and back in the same day is great if someone uses it. I would. Or taking the train to DC for a weekend etc….Many surprisingly don’t. So geographic proximity like that matters to me. Only you know those things.
Good luck. (Let me if/when you know when you visit the Stl and I can give you some recs.)
SEPTA on the other hand seems to have good coverage over most areas of the city. One thing that I question is the headway between trains going from the NW to Center City. How long does it take to get to Center City on the Chestnut Hill East/West lines? I have been on SEPTA before, but only in the immediate Center City neighborhoods. Is commuting better on the Manayunk/Norristown line in say Manayunk or East Falls vs Germantown on the Chestnut Hill line?
TBH, I don't understand why Fishtacos said you wouldn't find good public transit in any of these three cities unless they're a New Yorker and thus spoiled by the dense and extensive subway network there.
Washington and Chicago both have more extensive subway networks than Philadelphia's two spine lines, but SEPTA has a dense bus network that serves most of the city well, and most of the Regional Rail branches offer hourly service throughout the service day, something I don't think either of those two cities offer.
It takes anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes to reach Jefferson or Suburban stations on the two Chestnut Hill branches. (15 minutes from Germantown, 30 from Chestnut Hill.) However, the Chestnut Hill West branch is one of two (the other is Cynwyd) that don't offer hourly service throughout the day. CHW trains operate at 120-minute headways, and because of this, it may be faster for you to take the Route 23 bus down to Erie subway station and take the Broad Street Line into Center City if you live closer to the CHW than to the CHE.
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