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This is going to be rare in any neighborhood in NYC or Chicago that you would likely be interested in if you're thinking about possibly paying $3,500 in rent for a single person. Terrible incidents happen, but they're statistically pretty rare outside of specific areas that you are pretty unlikely to be in, so I think crime on your budget would probably be a pretty minor factor since that's not where you'd likely to be living or working.
I don't necessarily disagree with you but I also think this issue is often underplayed for Chicago, a city with well-publicized crime issues (including in supposedly safe neighborhoods) and one with very moderate pedestrian traffic (especially compared to NY) which doesn't lend itself to a feeling of comfort and safety out on the streets, especially late at night. I still remember a few years ago (pre-Covid) when I went to Chicago and Montreal in the same summer week. In Montreal the Metro was buzzing late into the evening every day, almost like in NY. In Chicago, taking the Red line from Downtown to Lincoln Park, it was super quiet with just a few people on the train. I wouldn't say that I felt unsafe, but it was a bit of an eerie vibe. Honest question: do people in Chicago always feel totally safe taking the El in the evening or walking around their neighborhoods after dark?
That entirely depends how long you've been living in NYC for. Over the past 20 years, since I've moved around the city I had maybe 10 "local" bodegas I'd go to. But as far as visited... I'd say easily over 200+ all over the city. Have no idea on the actual number.
Same for restaurants. Sure, I have restaurants I'd go to often, but there is also huge variety of restaurants that I've been to only once or just a few times. There are also these food fads every year that I'd at least try. One thing that still keeps me in NYC all these years is definitely the variety of food options...
There are 26,000+ restaurants in New York City. I doubt many people have been to more than 2% of them. There are about 7500 restaurants in Chicago. I can honestly say I’d bet 99% of Chicagoans haven’t been to 5% of those. (And remember your average restaurant lasts 5 years, so you’d be talking 50 or 60k restaurants over the course of 10 years in NYC)
That’s why the vibes don’t shake out in many non-nerds eyes as NYC is in a different stratosphere. Just NYC is clearly larger.
That’s kind of my point. Technically New York has more options but in reality, in both cities you’re limited by your time not your options. Unless your into east Krgystani food or something incredibly niche. Although it is significantly easier to find most ethnic foods in New York because diversity is one significant gap between the two cities.
However, the economy is why New York attracts and retains more people not late night Persian food.
There are 26,000+ restaurants in New York City. I doubt many people have been to more than 2% of them. There are about 7500 restaurants in Chicago. I can honestly say I’d bet 99% of Chicagoans haven’t been to 5% of those. (And remember your average restaurant lasts 5 years, so you’d be talking 50 or 60k restaurants over the course of 10 years in NYC)
That’s why the vibes don’t shake out in many non-nerds eyes as NYC is in a different stratosphere. Just NYC is clearly larger.
That’s kind of my point. Technically New York has more options but in reality, in both cities you’re limited by your time not your options. Unless your into east Krgystani food or something incredibly niche. Although it is significantly easier to find most ethnic foods in New York because diversity is one significant gap between the two cities.
^ this. And this could be said for like 20 cities too.
There are 26,000+ restaurants in New York City. I doubt many people have been to more than 2% of them. There are about 7500 restaurants in Chicago. I can honestly say I’d bet 99% of Chicagoans haven’t been to 5% of those. (And remember your average restaurant lasts 5 years, so you’d be talking 50 or 60k restaurants over the course of 10 years in NYC)
That’s kind of my point. Technically New York has more options but in reality, in both cities you’re limited by your time not your options. Unless your into east Krgystani food or something incredibly niche.
I was going to say something similar.
From what I understand, in some circles Chicago has more clout as a food city than NYC. I'm having a hard time envisioning someone living in Chicago being frustrated with their limited food options and longing for their days in NYC because "bodegas."
Other than crime, everything seems super vague and subjective. If being able to see Hamilton three weeks sooner and having a few more food options at 3 AM on a Tuesday is justifying that 2-3X COL increase, to each their own I suppose.
From what I understand, in some circles Chicago has more clout as a food city than NYC. I'm having a hard time envisioning someone living in Chicago being frustrated with their limited food options and longing for their days in NYC because "bodegas."
Other than crime, everything seems super vague and subjective. If being able to see Hamilton three weeks sooner and having a few more food options at 3 AM on a Tuesday is justifying that 2-3X COL increase, to each their own I suppose.
From like an Urbanist perspective “if I touch a car I will literally die” or someone who wants to see something totally new like “I want to go see a show of traditional Tanzanian tribal dance” or something then New York is the place for you. Cause Chicago simply hasn’t relegated the car to secondary transport nor has the crazy level of internationalism New York has.
But if you’re goal is just like a walkable neighborhood and enough stuff (and a healthy diversity of stuff) where you won’t get bored 99% of people will be fine in Chicago
Because the comparison is actually ridiculous on face value for people who actually experienced both cities on the ground. The only things comparable are maybe skylines from afar, the actual cities are very different in practice. The gap between NYC and Chicago is similar to Chicago and Cleveland... "Why pay premium for Chicago when you can live in Cleveland?"
As far as the thread is concerned. NYC has better:
- jobs and salaries: both diversity and quantity of jobs available, as well as higher salaries and higher ceilings.
- weather
- diversity, quantity, and quality of food/restaurants
- nightlife
- entertainment of all kinds from high class to low class and everything in between
- variety and quantity of cultural events, festivals, celebrities and acts available to see, etc.
- much more global/multinational city
- less crime overall: less murders, less property crime, less violent crime, etc. (pretty much all of the city is accessible to visit, there are no "no go" areas in NYC. You may not want to live in certain neighborhoods, but if you want to visit a restaurant or a friend, you can just go anywhere without thinking about it).
You're not really addressing the point though. You're missing the other half of the equation. No one is arguing that NYC has more experiences and opportunities (quantitative) and in most cases, higher-quality (though, on a on-to-one basis, quality between Chicago and NYC is pretty darn close. Argue this for me.). The question is, is the premium you must pay for NYC experiences worth it when compared to similar in Chi. Essentially, the ROI of NYC experiences versus those in Chicago.
While the benefits of NYC are enormous, there is a huge "life tax" just for living there. The COL is ridiculous. Yes, NYC residents have higher incomes, but it's a sliding scale to the mean for many in most cases. Then there's the dirt (NYC somehow still puts garbage on sidewalks. To this day, this is still unbelievable and unacceptable to me.). The noise. The crowds. Just a huge, grinding life tax. The ratio of cost : value of experience is not a good one, at least for me.
On the flip side, the energy and vibrancy and extremely exciting. There's just so d*mn much there to experience. In small doses, life affirming, special, cool, etc. Much of which, you could not experience-- at least to the same degree-- in Chicago.
But do I really need all this every day? Is the price I would have to pay for a nice house or decent condo worth these experiences? (rhetorical). There's a reason people say "XXXXXX is a nice place to visit, but I would not want to live there." Summed, the COL, crowds, dirt, noise, rat race, etc., are not appealing to me on a long term basis.
Chicago certainly has significant problems (crime, pension issues, the weather sucks, political corruption, etc.) but it also has a lot in its favor... reasonable COL, incredible culture and museums, restaurants, cleanliness, the Lake/river/parks, vibrancy, transportation (O'Hare, el, etc.), and does so without a ridiculous price tag.
NYC is my second favorite city in the U.S., but it's just *too much* across all facets, and for me, it's not worth paying for. Chi is fine. Better than fine.
There are 26,000+ restaurants in New York City. I doubt many people have been to more than 2% of them. There are about 7500 restaurants in Chicago. I can honestly say I’d bet 99% of Chicagoans haven’t been to 5% of those. (And remember your average restaurant lasts 5 years, so you’d be talking 50 or 60k restaurants over the course of 10 years in NYC)
That’s why the vibes don’t shake out in many non-nerds eyes as NYC is in a different stratosphere. Just NYC is clearly larger.
That’s kind of my point. Technically New York has more options but in reality, in both cities you’re limited by your time not your options. Unless your into east Krgystani food or something incredibly niche. Although it is significantly easier to find most ethnic foods in New York because diversity is one significant gap between the two cities.
However, the economy is why New York attracts and retains more people not late night Persian food.
I don't necessarily disagree with you but I also think this issue is often underplayed for Chicago, a city with well-publicized crime issues (including in supposedly safe neighborhoods) and one with very moderate pedestrian traffic (especially compared to NY) which doesn't lend itself to a feeling of comfort and safety out on the streets, especially late at night. I still remember a few years ago (pre-Covid) when I went to Chicago and Montreal in the same summer week. In Montreal the Metro was buzzing late into the evening every day, almost like in NY. In Chicago, taking the Red line from Downtown to Lincoln Park, it was super quiet with just a few people on the train. I wouldn't say that I felt unsafe, but it was a bit of an eerie vibe. Honest question: do people in Chicago always feel totally safe taking the El in the evening or walking around their neighborhoods after dark?
It’s been a different world in terms of ridership since 2020 (the pandemic). The El/CTA was always packed at all hours pre-pandemic (weekends, evenings, workday, etc). Now it’s kinda spotty. Sometimes it will be a little empty. It’s one of the reasons I’ve said I don’t ever think things will go back to “normal” again. Ridership and even the work time city buzz doesn’t feel like it did pre-pandemic.
I don't necessarily disagree with you but I also think this issue is often underplayed for Chicago, a city with well-publicized crime issues (including in supposedly safe neighborhoods) and one with very moderate pedestrian traffic (especially compared to NY) which doesn't lend itself to a feeling of comfort and safety out on the streets, especially late at night. I still remember a few years ago (pre-Covid) when I went to Chicago and Montreal in the same summer week. In Montreal the Metro was buzzing late into the evening every day, almost like in NY. In Chicago, taking the Red line from Downtown to Lincoln Park, it was super quiet with just a few people on the train. I wouldn't say that I felt unsafe, but it was a bit of an eerie vibe. Honest question: do people in Chicago always feel totally safe taking the El in the evening or walking around their neighborhoods after dark?
I live on the north side and I feel reasonably safe walking around my neighborhood, though less so after dark. We've had several murders near here in the last year, a guy chased my 9 year old daughter and I with a baseball bat, and there have been a bunch of muggings. Still I feel more or less fine during the day. I'm sure if I wasn't as privileged to live in the "nice" part of town I'd feel much less safe. It's actually kind of astonishing that I live in a "good" neighborhood and have still dealt with a lot of crime in just the last year. It's a pretty tough city.
As far as the CTA/red line--my commute is a horror-filled adventure driving over Baghdad-quality roads packed with potholes that swallow your car and other drivers that--bless their hearts--would make most 15-16 year old learners seem so good at driving they'd be hired as stunt drivers. Driving in Chicago is like rubbing your palms repeatedly over the same shards of glass that line the roads. And, yet, I never, not once, prefer the red line and the CTA to my driving experience. The system isn't actually THAT comprehensive, but it's just so nasty. It's easily one of the least safe feeling ls I have living here. The smells, the grime, the crime, the really degraded and "ghetto" vibes are just brutal. Especially I would never take my kids onto a train, which sucks because I love public transit and have lived in other countries with clean, safe, and really efficient train systems. Chicago's is like a bad joke by comparison.
It’s been a different world in terms of ridership since 2020 (the pandemic). The El/CTA was always packed at all hours pre-pandemic (weekends, evenings, workday, etc). Now it’s kinda spotty. Sometimes it will be a little empty. It’s one of the reasons I’ve said I don’t ever think things will go back to “normal” again. Ridership and even the work time city buzz doesn’t feel like it did pre-pandemic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeignCrunch
I live on the north side and I feel reasonably safe walking around my neighborhood, though less so after dark. We've had several murders near here in the last year, a guy chased my 9 year old daughter and I with a baseball bat, and there have been a bunch of muggings. Still I feel more or less fine during the day. I'm sure if I wasn't as privileged to live in the "nice" part of town I'd feel much less safe. It's actually kind of astonishing that I live in a "good" neighborhood and have still dealt with a lot of crime in just the last year. It's a pretty tough city.
As far as the CTA/red line--my commute is a horror-filled adventure driving over Baghdad-quality roads packed with potholes that swallow your car and other drivers that--bless their hearts--would make most 15-16 year old learners seem so good at driving they'd be hired as stunt drivers. Driving in Chicago is like rubbing your palms repeatedly over the same shards of glass that line the roads. And, yet, I never, not once, prefer the red line and the CTA to my driving experience. The system isn't actually THAT comprehensive, but it's just so nasty. It's easily one of the least safe feeling ls I have living here. The smells, the grime, the crime, the really degraded and "ghetto" vibes are just brutal. Especially I would never take my kids onto a train, which sucks because I love public transit and have lived in other countries with clean, safe, and really efficient train systems. Chicago's is like a bad joke by comparison.
Well damn! Haven't been to Chicago in years and last time I went I wasn't even an adult. Matter fact never rode public transportation while we were visiting family many many years ago. My Wife and I will be in Chicago for our anniversary next month. We'll be arriving in Chicago about 9 in the morning. We'll be staying in River North. How is the train ride from O'Hare to River North during morning rush hour? We'll have luggage so I don't want us "sticking out" on the hour commute to our hotel.
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