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I don't necessarily disagree with you but I also think this issue is often underplayed for Chicago, a city with well-publicized crime issues (including in supposedly safe neighborhoods) and one with very moderate pedestrian traffic (especially compared to NY) which doesn't lend itself to a feeling of comfort and safety out on the streets, especially late at night. I still remember a few years ago (pre-Covid) when I went to Chicago and Montreal in the same summer week. In Montreal the Metro was buzzing late into the evening every day, almost like in NY. In Chicago, taking the Red line from Downtown to Lincoln Park, it was super quiet with just a few people on the train. I wouldn't say that I felt unsafe, but it was a bit of an eerie vibe. Honest question: do people in Chicago always feel totally safe taking the El in the evening or walking around their neighborhoods after dark?
I haven't been back since the pandemic, but I didn't have any issue with taking the L in the evenings late night nor did I find it desolate. I guess there may be local variations by neighborhoods and time of year / day of the week?
Montreal is a very bustling city and very safe compared to major US cities. Personally, I generally like it more than NYC or Chicago, but I'm not interested in going through immigration and resettling again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
There are 26,000+ restaurants in New York City. I doubt many people have been to more than 2% of them. There are about 7500 restaurants in Chicago. I can honestly say I’d bet 99% of Chicagoans haven’t been to 5% of those. (And remember your average restaurant lasts 5 years, so you’d be talking 50 or 60k restaurants over the course of 10 years in NYC)
That’s why the vibes don’t shake out in many non-nerds eyes as NYC is in a different stratosphere. Just NYC is clearly larger.
That’s kind of my point. Technically New York has more options but in reality, in both cities you’re limited by your time not your options. Unless your into east Krgystani food or something incredibly niche. Although it is significantly easier to find most ethnic foods in New York because diversity is one significant gap between the two cities.
However, the economy is why New York attracts and retains more people not late night Persian food.
There is that element to it where the sheer size / number doesn't matter because you'll never have enough time for them all, but I think there are a few things to keep in mind. Partially due to that sheer size, there's a lot of diversity in there, and sticking with restaurants, for some very out there or uncommon cuisines or items. Ones that not every person in NYC would be interested in, but because there are so many, it's more likely to have more things that would map to more people's different preferences. Like, I want traditional Henan (not Hunan) hui mian noodles the kind with the silky, thin broth that's a bit medicinal in nature. I can get that in a few places in NYC. I did try to do a cursory look for it on yelp and google and couldn't find it. I also couldn't find Korean Uzbek restaurants though there is some good looking Uzbek cuisine. Does this matter for everyone or most people? Probably not, but this is a difference that the sheer size and the ability to sustain multitudes of small communities or subcultures exist in a way that would be difficult in a less populous city. Even outside of specifically being in those communities, that variety does make things exciting for some people. Now imagine this, but not just applying to restaurants, but to also different interests, skills, hobbies, and professions and all the subcultura and practices that would be behind such.
Outside of the size being able to harbor greater multitudes of different communities is also a different quality in having a much higher density. For much of NYC, a fifteen minute time window likely gets you to a lot more restaurants and potentially a much greater variety of restaurants and so it's not just the overall city diversity, but also localized diversity of options on a human scale.
This doesn't mean that Chicago won't be a better option for some, of course, as there are going to be things in Chicago that are difficult or impossible to find in NYC as well. There's also the question of whether or not someone would have the funds, time, or even just sheer physical space, to live the lifestyle they'd prefer because that variety of restaurants whether the larger overall diversity or local diversity isn't going to matter much if you don't have a commensurate wealth or income to afford to go out to eat often. All those interesting weird subcultura and hobbies and the communities behind them isn't really accessible if you have to work multiple jobs that don't pay enough with no time for anything else. I do think Chicago does potentially give a lot broader swathe of people greater breathing room and ability and time to explore things simply from being cheaper while also still dense enough to have at least some neighborhoods with some bustle. I think I lucked out to some degree by coming to NYC young and just past the nadir of the 2008 recession, so I essentially got in for cheap and "rebounded" with the city while being able to get around just fine and without being sucked into the costs of car ownership. I'm not sure coming here without much of a plan or wealth is really doable in NYC for young people now. I do think it might be possible in Chicago (and Philadelphia among others). Where the OP fits in that would strongly depend on a lot of personal factors and finances.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-08-2023 at 09:10 PM..
There are 26,000+ restaurants in New York City. I doubt many people have been to more than 2% of them. There are about 7500 restaurants in Chicago. I can honestly say I’d bet 99% of Chicagoans haven’t been to 5% of those. (And remember your average restaurant lasts 5 years, so you’d be talking 50 or 60k restaurants over the course of 10 years in NYC)
That’s why the vibes don’t shake out in many non-nerds eyes as NYC is in a different stratosphere. Just NYC is clearly larger.
That’s kind of my point. Technically New York has more options but in reality, in both cities you’re limited by your time not your options. Unless your into east Krgystani food or something incredibly niche. Although it is significantly easier to find most ethnic foods in New York because diversity is one significant gap between the two cities.
However, the economy is why New York attracts and retains more people not late night Persian food.
Its not just food, its all of your other interests and lifestyle combined.
I will use myself as an example:
I would like to live in in a city that has an urban walkable environment, into fashion, live Kpop band concerts, variety of good Chinese food (think Shoo Loong Kan and not cheap Chinese takeout), good sushi (think Nobu), into numismatics/coin collecting, skyscrapers, 24/7 nightlife, etc. The more interests you have, the narrower the list of cities gets. Some cities can cater to most of my interests, in some I'd have to compromise and settle for less, etc. Some people have other interests or maybe one hobby they are REALLY into that overrides everything else (for example, if you like snowboarding you probably wouldn't want to live in NYC), etc. To some, their field/profession can only really be found in NYC.
If you are an average American, doing average things, and having average interests, New York is probably not for you. That is why I quoted the post from the first page:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Quiet_One
Honestly, if you even have to ask this question, then live in Chicago.
^If you even have to ask the question OP is asking, it is a tell, like in poker, that NYC is probably not for you. (And frankly, Chicago is probably not for OP either, they may be better off settling in a medium sized city instead, since their lifestyle wouldn't change much.) ...I mean clearly you are not into Korean Uzbek food afterall..
Most Americans eat Popeyes, drive average cars, shop at average stores like Walmart/Amazon/Macys/Saks/Target, etc. They are better off living in Akron, or Phoenix, or Bakersfield, or whatever. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. After all most Americans are average for a reason and they lead average lifestyles. There is more of them then there are of me. If you are going to eat at average national chains and shop at average national chains and lead an average American life, there is no way you can justify a NYC premium.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLake
While the benefits of NYC are enormous, there is a huge "life tax" just for living there.
Agreed, an average American shouldn't live in NYC in the first place. There is simply no reason to. NYC probably would cater more to a statistically average person from Lyon than from an average person from Columbus.
Its not just food, its all of your other interests and lifestyle combined.
I will use myself as an example:
I would like to live in in a city that has an urban walkable environment, into fashion, live Kpop band concerts, variety of good Chinese food (think Shoo Loong Kan and not cheap Chinese takeout), good sushi (think Nobu), into numismatics/coin collecting, skyscrapers, 24/7 nightlife, etc. The more interests you have, the narrower the list of cities gets. Some cities can cater to most of my interests, in some I'd have to compromise and settle for less, etc. Some people have other interests or maybe one hobby they are REALLY into that overrides everything else (for example, if you like snowboarding you probably wouldn't want to live in NYC), etc. To some, their field/profession can only really be found in NYC.
If you are an average American, doing average things, and having average interests, New York is probably not for you. That is why I quoted the post from the first page:
^If you even have to ask the question OP is asking, it is a tell, like in poker, that NYC is probably not for you. (And frankly, Chicago is probably not for OP either, they may be better off settling in a medium sized city instead, since their lifestyle wouldn't change much.) ...I mean clearly you are not into Korean Uzbek food afterall..
Most Americans eat Popeyes, drive average cars, shop at average stores like Walmart/Amazon/Macys/Saks/Target, etc. They are better off living in Akron, or Phoenix, or Bakersfield, or whatever. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. After all most Americans are average for a reason and they lead average lifestyles. There is more of them then there are of me. If you are going to eat at average national chains and shop at average national chains and lead an average American life, there is no way you can justify a NYC premium.
Agreed, an average American shouldn't live in NYC in the first place. There is simply no reason to. NYC probably would cater more to a statistically average person from Lyon than from an average person from Columbus.
I don't think it is. I think it's really about personal preferences and situations. Some people really are into an array of fairly specific things, and put a large premium on them. That definitely exists, but it's also definitely not the same for everyone. This is why I keep asking what are the specifics for the OP's situation as in what do they value, how much of a budget do they have, what industry do they work in, etc.
Its not just food, its all of your other interests and lifestyle combined.
I will use myself as an example:
I would like to live in in a city that has an urban walkable environment, into fashion, live Kpop band concerts, variety of good Chinese food (think Shoo Loong Kan and not cheap Chinese takeout), good sushi (think Nobu), into numismatics/coin collecting, skyscrapers, 24/7 nightlife, etc. The more interests you have, the narrower the list of cities gets. Some cities can cater to most of my interests, in some I'd have to compromise and settle for less, etc. Some people have other interests or maybe one hobby they are REALLY into that overrides everything else (for example, if you like snowboarding you probably wouldn't want to live in NYC), etc. To some, their field/profession can only really be found in NYC.
If you are an average American, doing average things, and having average interests, New York is probably not for you. That is why I quoted the post from the first page:
^If you even have to ask the question OP is asking, it is a tell, like in poker, that NYC is probably not for you. (And frankly, Chicago is probably not for OP either, they may be better off settling in a medium sized city instead, since their lifestyle wouldn't change much.) ...I mean clearly you are not into Korean Uzbek food afterall..
Most Americans eat Popeyes, drive average cars, shop at average stores like Walmart/Amazon/Macys/Saks/Target, etc. They are better off living in Akron, or Phoenix, or Bakersfield, or whatever. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. After all most Americans are average for a reason and they lead average lifestyles. There is more of them then there are of me. If you are going to eat at average national chains and shop at average national chains and lead an average American life, there is no way you can justify a NYC premium.
Agreed, an average American shouldn't live in NYC in the first place. There is simply no reason to. NYC probably would cater more to a statistically average person from Lyon than from an average person from Columbus.
Yeah sure this is true... if you are an upper middle class or wealthy White or Asian American in tech. Then it doesn't apply to anybody else. Full Stop. Taking in the culture but not putting out to the city is basically what I read from this post.
I don't think it is. I think it's really about personal preferences and situations. Some people really are into an array of fairly specific things, and put a large premium on them. That definitely exists, but it's also definitely not the same for everyone. This is why I keep asking what are the specifics for the OP's situation as in what do they value, how much of a budget do they have, what industry do they work in, etc.
I'm more confused on the idea that average or normal people don't live in NYC. Probably most New Yorkers have the same generic and conventional lifestyle that everyone else does. They commute to their 40 hour jobs, they go shopping, they go out to eat somewhat frequently, and they go out to bars/clubs, they are in monogamous relationships, they have a group of friends that they hang with, etc...
Like the poster was talking about their supposedly niche interests, and then it was literally just eating sushi and listening to a very mainstream genre of music.
The whole post to me just read like poking fun at the "New Yorker desperate to be different from everyone else" stereotype.
Yeah sure this is true... if you are an upper middle class or wealthy White or Asian American in tech. Then it doesn't apply to anybody else. Full Stop. Taking in the culture but not putting out to the city is basically what I read from this post.
I think it's wealthy, well-paid, or lucky in that you happened upon a rent-stabilized apartment or some other form of highly subsidized or somehow not-market rent that is well below market because that generally is the largest expense and what puts people on the labor hamster wheel. This is in some ways regardless of race or industry, but the tech industry at least in the larger companies is a good way to get you into the well-paid and eventually wealthy category. The rent-stabilized or otherwise oddly low rent is something that's very much luck of the draw and is usually more to the benefit of natives and long-term transplants, but there is a surprising amount of NYC housing stock that's under such conditions. Also, if you are an active participant in a culture or subculture, then even attending by itself and adding "mass" to an audience is something and sometimes people are active participants. You don't have to be the wallflower at the orgy, but being part of the backdrop is still in some ways participating.
I agree though that the “average” American probably won’t find NYC or its environs all that appealing. Chicagoland is one of those places where you can have that “average” American life but yet The City isn’t that far away and housing prices are pretty moderate considering; it’s why Chicagoland is possibly my fav large metro in the US.
I don’t relate much to the NYC lifestyle. Movies and TV set there really don’t feel relatable. I haven’t spent time in the burbs like Long Island and such, but they do tend to feel a bit more hemmed in from what I’ve seen, or are laid out weirdly (looking at you, NJ). Even where I moved in WNY it doesn’t feel quite like an “average” American city.
So that’s the long way of saying, I actually can’t find anything which is worth a premium in NYC from anywhere else.
I'm more confused on the idea that average or normal people don't live in NYC. Probably most New Yorkers have the same generic and conventional lifestyle that everyone else does. They commute to their 40 hour jobs, they go shopping, they go out to eat somewhat frequently, and they go out to bars/clubs, they are in monogamous relationships, they have a group of friends that they hang with, etc...
Like the poster was talking about their supposedly niche interests, and then it was literally just eating sushi and listening to a very mainstream genre of music.
The whole post to me just read like poking fun at the "New Yorker desperate to be different from everyone else" character that you see often.
People that are fairly average live here, because a lot of people have family roots in the city or work in an industry where the prospects are especially good in the city (and you may just be getting the experience before leaving). However, if you're someone moving into the area without either of those being the draw, then it's a lot more peculiar and about your personal preferences. It was literally eating very nice sushi which isn't available everywhere (though is available in Chicago but in more limited variety) among other interests such as going to see live performances of a specific genre of music, but there were multiples of them and it's the intersection, not union of them that narrows it down. Is this something that everyone in NYC does, no? As already stated, there are other factors that can keep people here or at least mitigate some of the push factors away from NYC. However, there were questions about what *could* be the draw of NYC to justify the premium.
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