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Richmond was the Capital of the Confederacy. Key word, "was". As in, a run that lasted only four years and ended 152 friggin years ago...
I hate to inform you of this, but you are aware that Maryland has a pretty significant tobacco history themselves, No? So does Pennsylvania. You would be misinformed on your blanket statement about rivers, and Confederate monuments and memorials in the form of streets, places, buildings, and schools, and "other" do exist north of Virginia's border. So I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make, because if those are things that make Richmond as southern as you believe, it looks like there's room under that umbrella for more than just Richmond...
I can only assume that for those of you who find Richmond "undeniably Southern", either a)clearly there is a lack of knowledge of Richmond, Virginia in 2017 and the culture of the city"; b)clearly that person's knowledge of the American South in 2017 is scant; or more likely a combination of the two...
Richmond is southern. Spending time throughout the South gives me pause to call it "undeniably Southern". Spending time in the Northeast affirms that it undeniably isn't Northern. It is in the East Coast North/South transition zone, aka the Mid-Atlantic. It may be one of the Gateways to the South, but it surely isnt the only one and realistically isn't a lock to win this topic. There is no surefire answer to this question...
Grits are common as far north as southern Delaware, as are Hushpuppies, the Richmond Metro is 96% Black or (non-Hispanic) White while Northern Metros are usually down around 75%, which include heavy Asian and Hispanic Populations. NASCAR is more popular than the NHL in Virginia, while from PA north the opposite is true. Linguistically Richmond is southern. In fact name one thing that makes Richmond not southern? For the most part, Northeastern State Schools are not in P5 Conferences (Penn State, and Outlier). Rutgers technically is but it has about 0 cultural relevance in NJ.
The most of the Confederate Monuments and Tabaco Fields north of Virginia are in Maryland which is debatable whether it belongs in the North or South.
Lousiville is the best answer because the Ohio is the best solid geographic barrier between the North and the South, and even then Southern Culture bleeds northwards more so than vice vesa across the Ohio. but at the same time Cincinnati is in no way a Southern City, nor Indiana a southern state, that is how I feel about DC, Richmond and Baltimore.
Richmond was the Capital of the Confederacy. Key word, "was". As in, a run that lasted only four years and ended 152 friggin years ago...
I hate to inform you of this, but you are aware that Maryland has a pretty significant tobacco history themselves, No? So does Pennsylvania. You would be misinformed on your blanket statement about rivers, and Confederate monuments and memorials in the form of streets, places, buildings, and schools, and "other" do exist north of Virginia's border. So I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make, because if those are things that make Richmond as southern as you believe, it looks like there's room under that umbrella for more than just Richmond...
I can only assume that for those of you who find Richmond "undeniably Southern", either a)clearly there is a lack of knowledge of Richmond, Virginia in 2017 and the culture of the city"; b)clearly that person's knowledge of the American South in 2017 is scant; or more likely a combination of the two...
Richmond is southern. Spending time throughout the South gives me pause to call it "undeniably Southern". Spending time in the Northeast affirms that it undeniably isn't Northern. It is in the East Coast North/South transition zone, aka the Mid-Atlantic. It may be one of the Gateways to the South, but it surely isnt the only one and realistically isn't a lock to win this topic. There is no surefire answer to this question...
If you're driving from the north to Richmond, you would have already been in the south for 3 hours, and driving through 2 southern metros before getting to Richmond. It's undeniably southern. Maybe Wilmington or Cecil County, MD is where the transition takes place due to its Philly influences.
Grits are common as far north as southern Delaware, as are Hushpuppies, the Richmond Metro is 96% Black or (non-Hispanic) White while Northern Metros are usually down around 75%, which include heavy Asian and Hispanic Populations. NASCAR is more popular than the NHL in Virginia, while from PA north the opposite is true. Linguistically Richmond is southern. In fact name one thing that makes Richmond not southern? For the most part, Northeastern State Schools are not in P5 Conferences (Penn State, and Outlier). Rutgers technically is but it has about 0 cultural relevance in NJ.
The most of the Confederate Monuments and Tabaco Fields north of Virginia are in Maryland which is debatable whether it belongs in the North or South.
Lousiville is the best answer because the Ohio is the best solid geographic barrier between the North and the South, and even then Southern Culture bleeds northwards more so than vice vesa across the Ohio. but at the same time Cincinnati is in no way a Southern City, nor Indiana a southern state, that is how I feel about DC, Richmond and Baltimore.
And Louisville lines up nicely with the transition zone in between DC and Richmond, where the South starts to slowly creep up.
Grits are common as far north as southern Delaware, as are Hushpuppies, the Richmond Metro is 96% Black or (non-Hispanic) White while Northern Metros are usually down around 75%, which include heavy Asian and Hispanic Populations. NASCAR is more popular than the NHL in Virginia, while from PA north the opposite is true. Linguistically Richmond is southern. In fact name one thing that makes Richmond not southern? For the most part, Northeastern State Schools are not in P5 Conferences (Penn State, and Outlier). Rutgers technically is but it has about 0 cultural relevance in NJ.
The most of theConfederate Monuments andTabaco Fields north of Virginia are in Maryland which is debatable whether it belongs in the North or South.
Lousiville is the best answer because the Ohio is the best solid geographic barrier between the North and the South, and even then Southern Culture bleeds northwards more so than vice vesa across the Ohio. but at the same time Cincinnati is in no way a Southern City, nor Indiana a southern state, that is how I feel about DC, Richmond and Baltimore.
False.
Most of the tobacco farms north of Virginia are in PA, OH, CT, IN.
Grits are common as far north as southern Delaware, as are Hushpuppies, the Richmond Metro is 96% Black or (non-Hispanic) White while Northern Metros are usually down around 75%, which include heavy Asian and Hispanic Populations. NASCAR is more popular than the NHL in Virginia, while from PA north the opposite is true. Linguistically Richmond is southern. In fact name one thing that makes Richmond not southern? For the most part, Northeastern State Schools are not in P5 Conferences (Penn State, and Outlier). Rutgers technically is but it has about 0 cultural relevance in NJ.
The most of the Confederate Monuments and Tabaco Fields north of Virginia are in Maryland which is debatable whether it belongs in the North or South.
Lousiville is the best answer because the Ohio is the best solid geographic barrier between the North and the South, and even then Southern Culture bleeds northwards more so than vice vesa across the Ohio. but at the same time Cincinnati is in no way a Southern City, nor Indiana a southern state, that is how I feel about DC, Richmond and Baltimore.
The problem here is you are giving examples that, while being traditionally and historically rooted in the South, have long sensed ceased being barometers of whether one is Southern or not. So I'll keep it simple here without getting long-winded:
-grits can't be found at every establishment but are literally found at restaurants in every state. There are restaurants in New York and California that serve grits, and natives of those states who eat grits, and every other state included. Likewise, I'm a self-proclaimed southerner who hates grits, has never liked them, and at 28 years old hasn't even tried to eat grits since I was what, 5? Does this mean I'm not a Southerner?
-Nascar is also more popular than the NHL in Kansas and Arizona and debatably, California (as well as other states). Nascar is rooted in the South, but is no longer a "South thing" and hasn't been for awhile. You're from Upstate NY and though there are very few places in the US as hockey-centric, there is a huge Nascar following throughout the Upstate that apparently you want to keep a secret. Your point again?
-We can read demographics however we want to, to fit our argument. Ethnically, of course the Northeast has more widespread diversity, but just as a black/white ratio? The Richmond metro is about 87.4% black/white. Baltimore metro is 86% black/white. These do pale in comparison to major Northeastern cities--although metro Providence is 81.5% black/white; metro Buffalo is 89.8% black/white; metro Rochester is 87.9% black/white. The biggesr difference is there is generally less variation of white ethnicities and higher proportions of blacks in the Southeast compared to the Northeast, but to your point on black/white cities? The Northeast definitely takes on its share of homogenous metro areas outside of its largest, most cosmopolitan metros...
I didn't say Richmond wasn't southern; however, I can definitely name some cultural similarities it has with the Northeast:
The only states with more national historic landmarks than Virginia are all not in the South (New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, California). Three of them are in the Northeast. Strictly from the perspective of historic and cultural shaping of the nation in its early form, Virginia and Richmond City have more in common with the Northeast than any Southern state. Its historical influence and charm reverberates today, just as it does in many NE areas, to a degree felt few and far between in the contemporary South. Clearly Richmond was established well before 99% of any Southern city, was built up in the form of most old Northern cities, and though it anchored the South it has ALWAYS had business, education, social, and political ties to the Northeast. Along those lines, to this day the city is more connected to the Northeast than anywhere south of VA borders...
Richmond and Virginia also have a proportion if Muslims more synonymous with the Northeast than any Southern state outside of Texas. One can also dig up various examples and statistics to point modern Richmond is more politically inclined to its northern neighbors than its southern ones...
The point isn't that Richmond isn't southern, it's that it isn't "undeniably" southern...
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,132 posts, read 7,575,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue
Not really.
When you cross state line into MD, you're in the south. When you hit Fredericksburg, you're in the old, tired, stereotypical definition of the south. Between the MD state line, and Fredericksburg, you're in an area that people find hard to classify as it doesn't fit their narrow view of what they think the south is; It's the south nevertheless.
The only correct answers in this thread are Louisville KY and Baltimore.
Almost nobody on this thread agrees with you, look at the poll. Lol.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,132 posts, read 7,575,946 times
Reputation: 5796
Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue
The south is so bad that it is the fastest growing region in the US. People are their beloved Northeastern cities are flocking to the south in droves. What does that actually say about the Northeast?
Who is flocking to the southern mecca of Baltimore as you proclaim it to be?
If you're driving from the north to Richmond, you would have already been in the south for 3 hours, and driving through 2 southern metros before getting to Richmond. It's undeniably southern. Maybe Wilmington or Cecil County, MD is where the transition takes place due to its Philly influences.
Driving from the north, I get that perspective...
Driving from the south and from the states to the southwest of Virginia, it's difficult to argue that Richmond is undeniably southern. Its a matter of perspective and honestly, I don't personally feel either is wrong. Coming from even rural North Carolina 2-3 hours away, Richmond is not typically southern, and coming from Big City South (metros over 1 million), the same vantage exists. Everybody on here debates where the North ends and South begins coming from the North, without acknowledging there is very much another side of that argument--where the South ends and North begins in the eyes of true blooded Southerners...
That side of the coin says the South ends well before Richmond, and Richmond is the Gateway to the North. And if you're someone primarily born and raised South if Virginia, you likely experience a level of culture shock in Richmond and regard it's Southern personality as light, at best...
I just moved to Norfolk (I actually stay currently in the Newtown area that straddles Norfolk and Virginia Beach), and this discussion goes beyond just Richmond in Virginia. A very, very, very strong case can be made that this area and cities are more southern and/or Sunbelt-ish in nature than Richmond and it's metro, and coincidentally a guy at my work is from Columbia, SC, a city recently discussed in concert with Richmond in here. And while I haven't asked him yet, through four days of working with him, the impression I have is that this is not a region or area that is "typically" or "undeniably" Southern to him, based on comments he's given throughout the week...
Richmond is a southern city that is unquestionably historically southern but in the modern day an embodiment of both regions, even if to different degree, and depending on your perspective, it can favor one or the other more. I've been all over the South, and to me, Richmond is not a place I'd call unquestionably or typically Southern, but then, I am one of the few people here with any intimate knowledge of what Richmond is like. And neither is DC, or Baltimore. Southern, yes. "Unquestionably"? Nah, and the only reason Rich was considered southern in yesteryear is because this country was vastly smaller and less diverse, because many of the ties it held to the Northeast back then still hold today and have even strengthened, while its ties to the traditional South have weakened...
This doesn't mean Richmond isn't a southern city. It just means it's the Southern City with unquestionable and undeniable gravitas to the Northeast...
Almost nobody on this thread agrees with you, look at the poll. Lol.
Facts don't matter if you disagree or not. This isn't an opinion based conversation. Plus, you just realize that people don't know what they're talking about.
The problem here is you are giving examples that, while being traditionally and historically rooted in the South, have long sensed ceased being barometers of whether one is Southern or not. So I'll keep it simple here without getting long-winded:
-grits can't be found at every establishment but are literally found at restaurants in every state. There are restaurants in New York and California that serve grits, and natives of those states who eat grits, and every other state included. Likewise, I'm a self-proclaimed southerner who hates grits, has never liked them, and at 28 years old hasn't even tried to eat grits since I was what, 5? Does this mean I'm not a Southerner?
-Nascar is also more popular than the NHL in Kansas and Arizona and debatably, California (as well as other states). Nascar is rooted in the South, but is no longer a "South thing" and hasn't been for awhile. You're from Upstate NY and though there are very few places in the US as hockey-centric, there is a huge Nascar following throughout the Upstate that apparently you want to keep a secret. Your point again?
-We can read demographics however we want to, to fit our argument. Ethnically, of course the Northeast has more widespread diversity, but just as a black/white ratio? The Richmond metro is about 87.4% black/white. Baltimore metro is 86% black/white. These do pale in comparison to major Northeastern cities--although metro Providence is 81.5% black/white; metro Buffalo is 89.8% black/white; metro Rochester is 87.9% black/white. The biggesr difference is there is generally less variation of white ethnicities and higher proportions of blacks in the Southeast compared to the Northeast, but to your point on black/white cities? The Northeast definitely takes on its share of homogenous metro areas outside of its largest, most cosmopolitan metros...
I didn't say Richmond wasn't southern; however, I can definitely name some cultural similarities it has with the Northeast:
The only states with more national historic landmarks than Virginia are all not in the South (New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, California). Three of them are in the Northeast. Strictly from the perspective of historic and cultural shaping of the nation in its early form, Virginia and Richmond City have more in common with the Northeast than any Southern state. Its historical influence and charm reverberates today, just as it does in many NE areas, to a degree felt few and far between in the contemporary South. Clearly Richmond was established well before 99% of any Southern city, was built up in the form of most old Northern cities, and though it anchored the South it has ALWAYS had business, education, social, and political ties to the Northeast. Along those lines, to this day the city is more connected to the Northeast than anywhere south of VA borders...
Richmond and Virginia also have a proportion if Muslims more synonymous with the Northeast than any Southern state outside of Texas. One can also dig up various examples and statistics to point modern Richmond is more politically inclined to its northern neighbors than its southern ones...
The point isn't that Richmond isn't southern, it's that it isn't "undeniably" southern...
Grits are practically non existent from about Philly northwards. I have never seen grits in Mass or NYS.
Demographically you chose outliers. Puerto Rican is the largest single ethnic group in Hampden County (Springfield) MA and is about 70% non Hispanic white. Similar to the major cities.
And in terms of Hockey vs NASCAR you picked two states that have strong Southern connection and 1 that Borders Mexico. No New England State, NY, NJ not PA is NASCAR more popular than the NHL. This is about the NE vs South.
Historically Virgina is Southern. That is why Jefferson and Washington played such large roles in the Revolution because the Massachusetts delegation wanted broad support and by introducing Southern leadership it broadened the movement to all colonies.
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