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I know. I only posted the per capita GDP to show that Charlotte can be viewed two ways. Charlotte either has an "inflated" GDP, or an "under-inflated" MSA. You be the judge.
The former. In the coming years, the GDP will come to mirror the MSA "more accurately," so the speak.
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The problem is that the "general feel of a place" is 100% subjective and can not be proven in any way, shape, or form.
Actually it can. That's where the urbanized area population statistics come into play. Out of all of the statistics that exist that attempt to account for how big a city truly is, I think this one does the best job. The 2008 UA estimates for Charlotte come to 952,806; Nashville's is 819,155. That's not a drastic difference at all.
While MSAs and CSAs have their place (MSAs more so than CSAs), they usually include lots of rural land in adjacent counties that are a bit detached from the central city. For instance, if someone plopped you down in western York County blindfolded, once you took off your blindfold, you'd have no idea you were actually located in a 1.7 million person MSA. Furthermore, people don't generally try and get a feel of the central city by visiting satellite cities or suburbs within the vicinity of the central city. But when walking and driving around the city, the urbanized area population figure is what they are going to see reflected all around them. This is why I say in terms of feel, there's not this astronomical difference between Charlotte and Nashville.
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Now, back to more objective data. One thing that I have noticed is that nearly all stats on metro Nashville are based on Nashville's MSA (as they are based on Charlotte's MSA also). That being said, don't you find it interesting that Charlotte adds more people in a 3,000 sq/mi MSA than Nashville does in a 5,700 sq/mi MSA? It is enough to make one wonder how many people are actually moving into Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA. I know Iredell county is seeing tons of growth that isn't included in Charlotte's MSA growth stats. Almost all of Nashville's growth is included in its MSA (while Charlotte's is not).
I think the only counties that were included in Charlotte's MSA that are no longer included are Lancaster (which is slow-growing) and Iredell. Iredell is a relatively fast-growing county, but it's still very misleading to say that the MSA doesn't capture the lion's share of the growth here in Charlotte. Mecklenburg, Cabarrus, Union, and York all added more people than Iredell from 2000-2008. They overwhelmingly constitute the majority of the growth here in the region.
The former. In the coming years, the GDP will come to mirror the MSA "more accurately," so the speak.
YES!!! After the MSA gains CSA counties (or grows organically). This would suggest that the latter is the correct answer, not the former. If the former is the correct answer, seems to me that Charlotte's "over-inflated" GDP should shrink in the future to match the "correct sized" MSA right?
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Originally Posted by Akhenaton06
Actually it can. That's where the urbanized area population statistics come into play. Out of all of the statistics that exist that attempt to account for how big a city truly is, I think this one does the best job. The 2008 UA estimates for Charlotte come to 952,806; Nashville's is 819,155. That's not a drastic difference at all.
Really? You yourself should know that there is a HUGE difference in the look and feel of Richmond compared to Charlotte (Richmond looking and feeling more urban). However, Charlotte and Richmond have VERY similar UAs. NO!!! You can not use UAs to determine how a city looks and feels. BTW (since we are being subjective) Charlotte's core area looks more "big city" than Nashville's (and I ain't just talking skylines either).
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Originally Posted by Akhenaton06
While MSAs and CSAs have their place (MSAs more so than CSAs), they usually include lots of rural land in adjacent counties that are a bit detached from the central city.
Ain't that the truth!!! And Nashville's MSA/CSA has TONS more of said "rural land" than Charlotte's MSA/CSA.
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Originally Posted by Akhenaton06
For instance, if someone plopped you down in western York County blindfolded, once you took off your blindfold, you'd have no idea you were actually located in a 1.7 million person MSA.
Dude, I have delivered freight in parts of Philly's MSA that were the same way. What's your point here because I am missing it?
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Originally Posted by Akhenaton06
Furthermore, people don't generally try and get a feel of the central city by visiting satellite cities or suburbs within the vicinity of the central city.
No they don't. However, those "satellite cities or suburbs" are what separates the Atlantas of the World from the Vancouvers. (Vancouver being more of an urban city and Atlanta being more of a World class metro).
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Originally Posted by Akhenaton06
But when walking and driving around the city, the urbanized area population figure is what they are going to see reflected all around them.
Again, tell yourself this the next time you walk around Charlotte and Richmond (two cities with similar UAs).
Now, let's just agree to disagree and celebrate Anthony Foxx's BIG win!!!
YES!!! After the MSA gains CSA counties (or grows organically). This would suggest that the latter is the correct answer, not the former. If the former is the correct answer, seems to me that Charlotte's "over-inflated" GDP should shrink in the future to match the "correct sized" MSA right?
The GDP won't shrink, but it won't grow as fast. The MSA will still grow rapidly, but probably not quite as fast as it used to.
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Really? You yourself should know that there is a HUGE difference in the look and feel of Richmond compared to Charlotte (Richmond looking and feeling more urban). However, Charlotte and Richmond have VERY similar UAs. NO!!! You can not use UAs to determine how a city looks and feels.
Richmond is indeed a different case due to the layout and density of downtown. Charlotte and Nashville have very similar development patterns though. When development patterns and urbanity are held constant, as they are in the case of Charlotte and Nashville, UAs are very good indicators.
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BTW (since we are being subjective) Charlotte's core area looks more "big city" than Nashville's (and I ain't just talking skylines either).
From a skyline perspective, I'd say yes. On the street level, I'd say no. Nashville being the state capital and being located on a river may play more into this.
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Dude, I have delivered freight in parts of Philly's MSA that were the same way. What's your point here because I am missing it?
The point is that the MSA designation is more of a measure of how large the economy of an urban region is and less of a measure of how large a place feels. This is especially true in the case of multinodal metro areas.
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Now, let's just agree to disagree and celebrate Anthony Foxx's BIG win!!!
From a skyline perspective, I'd say yes. On the street level, I'd say no. Nashville being the state capital and being located on a river may play more into this.
Now you KNOW many of "my peoples" are from the same area you are from. So by default, I am ALWAYS going to respect what you say and what you think. Your track record on this site (and others) speaks for itself and gives you MUCH credibility.
However, you do know that Nashville's core (or downtown) has a smaller population than downtown Raleigh (let alone uptown Charlotte)? You WILL NOT find neighborhoods quite like 1st, 2nd, 3rd, nor 4th ward in downtown Nashville. You should KNOW that I ride my bike quite often through Uptown's wards. I have done the same in Nashville's center city (and other cities too). Honestly, uptown Charlotte has a residential population that is 2 1/2 times larger than Nashville's downtown population. At the street level, uptown Charlotte has MANY interesting and inviting neighborhoods when compared to downtown Nashville. Don't let the river and the Titans stadium fool you my friend. Uptown Charlotte has roughly 11,000 people living in it (and that number has been growing FAST as of late; though it has slowed down here recently). Compare this to downtown Nashville's 4,200 residents and it isn't even a contest. At the downtown core (and at the MSA/CSA level) Charlotte is a larger/denser city than Nashville.
Downtown Nashville
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Downtown Nashville Residential Population Growth (based on new units added downtown):
Now, once we throw in a light rail line, a Ritz Carlton hotel, an urban "canyon" like the one on Tryon Street, and SEVERAL bars and restaurants, how on EARTH could you say that Nashville and Charlotte has "similar" downtowns at "the street level"? You must be seeing something in Nashville that I have missed. Please feel free to enlighten me...
Last edited by urbancharlotte; 11-04-2009 at 08:28 AM..
Now you KNOW many of "my peoples" are from the same area you are from. So by default, I am ALWAYS going to respect what you say and what you think. Your track record on this site (and others) speaks for itself and gives you MUCH credibility.
However, you do know that Nashville's core (or downtown) has a smaller population than downtown Raleigh. You WILL NOT find neighborhoods quite like 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ward in downtown Nashville. You should KNOW that I ride my bike quite often throught uptown's wards. I have done the same in Nashville's center city (and other cities). Honestly, uptown Charlotte has a residential population that is 2 1/2 times larger than Nashville's downtown population. At the street level, uptown Charlotte has MANY interesting and inviting neighborhoods when compared to downtown Nashville. Don't let the river and the Titans stadium fool you my friend. Uptown Charlotte has roughly 11,000 people living in it (and that number has been growing FAST as of late; though it has slowed down here recently). Compare this to downtown Nashville's 4,200 residents and it isn't even a contest. At the downtown core (and at the MSA/CSA level) Charlotte is a larger/denser city than Nashville.
I think that was in reference to the activity level at the street. Charlotte definitely lacks adequate shopping at the street level. We ave oodles of resturaunts and clubs, but we need more shopping. It would be nice.
I think that was in reference to the activity level at the street. Charlotte definitely lacks adequate shopping at the street level. We ave oodles of resturaunts and clubs, but we need more shopping. It would be nice.
OK, now I CAN agree with this! It kills me everytime I head up to the Huntington, West Virginia area (to see my in laws and old friends) and go into downtown Huntington. Eventhough Huntington is a "small town", it has a downtown area with TONS of street level retail and such (for its size). Charlotte tore down much of its downtown retail past and it has not come back since.
Eventhough it was DEAD on this Sunday morning (I think it was a Sunday) that my wife shot these videos; take a look at downtown Huntington's look and feel. I personally think this "small town" has Charlotte beat in the "urban" look and feel department. Huntington is yet another example of UA having VERY little to do with a city's "look and feel". Tell me what y'all think...
In this "small city's" downtown, one can find two movie theaters, a grocery store, an arena, river front parks, and a college (Marshall University). My point is that even West Virginia's 2nd largest city can give one the impression of being in a larger city. UA's (IMO) are just too vague.
Now, to get back on topic. Here is another video (shot by my wife) that shows how uptown Charlotte looks and feels when one is riding in on the light rail.
Downtown Nashville has experienced incredible growth. Charlotte has nothing that compares to 2nd Ave with the old warehouses and nightlife. Nashville also has a new downtown shopping district in the Gulch where Urban Outfitters recently opened. Nashville even built an urban grocery store downtown to accomodate all of the new growth. We also have a 5 diamond hotel downtown... Something That Charlotte doesn't have....
Downtown Nashville has experienced incredible growth. Charlotte has nothing that compares to 2nd Ave with the old warehouses and nightlife. Nashville also has a new downtown shopping district in the Gulch where Urban Outfitters recently opened. Nashville even built an urban grocery store downtown to accomodate all of the new growth. We also have a 5 diamond hotel downtown... Something That Charlotte doesn't have....
No offense, but the 25703 zip code of Huntington, West Virginia (just east of downtown Huntington) is more dense (and populated) than downtown Nashville.
One thing interesting to note is that the Charlotte and Huntington zips I posted have large (and fairly even) male and female populations. The Nashville zip I posted has 1,000 males and only about 100 or so females. I am guessing that most of this zip's population is the county jail.
At any rate, downtown Nashville (for the most part) is residentially unpopulated when compared to MANY other cities (big and small). Maybe we should build more jails in downtown Nashville. That seems to be the ticket to getting more residents there (I am ONLY joking y'all).
Nashville has more downtown zips as it covers more than 0.3 sq miles. You are just using convenient info as always. Downtown Nashville has doubled it's population since 2000 so that's a pretty good thing in my book.
Downtown Nashville has experienced incredible growth. Charlotte has nothing that compares to 2nd Ave with the old warehouses and nightlife. Nashville also has a new downtown shopping district in the Gulch where Urban Outfitters recently opened. Nashville even built an urban grocery store downtown to accomodate all of the new growth. We also have a 5 diamond hotel downtown... Something That Charlotte doesn't have....
You're feeding the troll....
I told you he will NOT meet you halfway. He will not be satisfied until you publicly say Charlotte is the greatest city on earth... LOL
I go to Charlotte fairly often. Charlotte is no different than any other midsize city. Sometimes it lively... Sometimes it dead... However according to Urban, it's hopping and bustling 24/7. He can't live with the fact Charlotte isn't NYC. Sad....
Charlotte's still to 2nd to NYC! Queen City baby!
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One thing that I have noticed is that nearly all stats on metro Nashville are based on Nashville's MSA (as they are based on Charlotte's MSA also). That being said, don't you find it interesting that Charlotte adds more people in a 3,000 sq/mi MSA than Nashville does in a 5,700 sq/mi MSA? It is enough to make one wonder how many people are actually moving into Charlotte's 6,500 sq/mi CSA. I know Iredell county is seeing tons of growth that isn't included in Charlotte's MSA growth stats. Almost all of Nashville's growth is included in its MSA (while Charlotte's is not).
"Ay Bo", take that back to Orangeburg!!! lol
This would suggest that the latter is the correct answer, not the former. If the former is the correct answer, seems to me that Charlotte's "over-inflated" GDP should shrink in the future to match the "correct sized" MSA right?
