Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Ah I see, judging a man by the city he's from. I have been visiting Cleveland most of my life (I have relatives there), and I have been to Boston. Why don't you prove to me that culturally, linguistically, and demographically, that Boston and Cleveland are two peas in a pod? You act like they are exactly one and the same. That is wrong, and if you can't see that, I bet you think Jackson, Mississippi and Indianapolis belong in the same boat.
Ah I see, judging a man by the city he's from. I have been visiting Cleveland most of my life (I have relatives there), and I have been to Boston. Why don't you prove to me that culturally, linguistically, and demographically, that Boston and Cleveland are two peas in a pod? You act like they are exactly one and the same. That is wrong, and if you can't see that, I bet you think Jackson, Mississippi and Indianapolis belong in the same boat.
I said:
Quote:
Public Square reminds me of Copley Square quite a bit. Shaker Square reminds me somewhat of where I live on Comm Ave near Cleveland Circle. University Circle doesn't really remind me of a specific place in Boston, but to me it seems like if it were in Boston, it wouldn't suprise me, with the nice green space. Though honestly, I don't feel that Boston has an equivalent neighborhood to UC. Shaker Heights is also New Englandy, in my opinion. I think the other areas of Cleveland are more Rust Belty than northeastern, but I just think there are certainly some places that seem kinda like Boston to me.
Oh well excuse me, you've been to Boston once and you know someone who lives in Cleveland. My apologies.
Please point out where I said they are basically the same city. I'm having a hard time with finding what you're talking about. I think most people who have any knowledge of both cities could see these similarities.
Again, I actually lived in both places. I know both cities pretty well. I'm not a visitor to either place. There are plenty of differences (Boston is way more dense, is more public transit-oriented, different accent, huge university presence, much older, has a lot more money in general, is on an ocean, not a lake), but it's inaccurate to say there are no similarities. Cleveland has more Boston-y characteristics than, say, Columbus or Cincinnati do. But I'd still say Cleveland overall is more like other Rust Belt places. I would say culturally there still are similarities too. There is definitely a strong blue collar presence in both places, though today these people in Boston are being largely pushed to the suburbs. Both also have an obsession with sports, especially complaining about them. Both are very proud cities. People from both really seem to love wearing clothes that reflect this all the time.
Last edited by bjimmy24; 05-01-2013 at 09:44 AM..
Reason: Bad wording
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,093,968 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24
I said:
Oh well excuse me, you've been to Boston once and you know someone who lives in Cleveland. My apologies.
Please point out where I said they are basically the same city. I'm having a hard time with finding what you're talking about. I think most people who have any knowledge of both cities could see these similarities.
Again, I actually lived in both places. I know both cities pretty well. I'm not a visitor to either place. There are plenty of differences (Boston is way more dense, is more public transit-oriented, different accent, huge university presence, much older, has a lot more money in general, is on an ocean, not a lake), but it's inaccurate to say there are no similarities. Cleveland has more Boston-y characteristics than, say, Columbus or Cincinnati do. But I'd still say Cleveland overall is more like other Rust Belt places. I would say culturally there still are similarities too. There is definitely a strong blue collar presence in both places, though today these people in Boston are being largely pushed to the suburbs. Both also have an obsession with sports, especially complaining about them. Both are very proud cities. People from both really seem to love wearing clothes that reflect this all the time.
You know, I'll somewhat soften my stance and agree with you, but you really discredit me more than is necessary. I've been visiting Cleveland for almost 30 years, so I think I have a fairly decent knowledge of the area. And when did I ever say I've been to Boston once? I've been there multiple times. I am not as uneducated as you think. I will agree that Cleveland and Boston are similar in that they are both Northern cities in the eastern united states, and share architectural similarity as well, and are linked through ancestry. Other than that, I just don't see what else the similarities could be.
You know, I'll somewhat soften my stance and agree with you, but you really discredit me more than is necessary. I've been visiting Cleveland for almost 30 years, so I think I have a fairly decent knowledge of the area. And when did I ever say I've been to Boston once? I've been there multiple times. I am not as uneducated as you think. I will agree that Cleveland and Boston are similar in that they are both Northern cities in the eastern united states, and share architectural similarity as well, and are linked through ancestry. Other than that, I just don't see what else the similarities could be.
I know this thread has been long abandoned, but I just wanted to take a moment and say that I have really enjoyed threads like this one, as I often see them bashed, and seldom appreciated. Is Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Buffalo Northeast or Midwestern? Cincinnati-D.C.-St. Louis Southern? or is Dallas-OKC Western or Southern? City Data is one of the few places you can engage in such topics, as most people would be quickly bored and turn to sports. Where else can you find rankings of farmland percentages by state, graphs of city populations from colonial times, and German ancestry maps all in the same place?
Of course the question of Cleveland being Midwestern or Northeastern won't be settled on this or any forum, but the fact that it is being discussed at all is indicative of something. No one is talking about northeastern influence in Columbus which is only 2 hours away, as it is rather secure in its Midwestern status. While the many threads about Pittsburgh's status, and the fact that it has popped up numerous times in this thread, which is actually just about Cleveland, shows that it is probably pretty close to the dividing line.
For me the thread was worth reading just to see other people advance the idea of a Great Lakes region which includes places like Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland, and Buffalo, since when I have tried to bring it up in live conversation, it has been peremptorily dismissed.
Which also allows me to close tying into the original question, although other wasn't an option. Abandoning all attempts to correlate with facts, Cleveland has a feel (to me) as being a part of the above-mentioned Great Lakes region. Or perhaps otherwise stated as Midwestern with a Northeastern infusion feel.
When I lived in Northeastern Ohio, we often discussed this. Most of us agreed that Ohio is a crossroads of a lot of regions. Columbus and Dayton are definitely Midwestern cities in appearance and attitude. Cleveland, Youngstown and most of NEOH tend to be more like Northeastern Industrial cities, so we considered it the far-reaches of the Northeastern US. Cincinnati on the other hand has more of a Southern personality, so we called it the upper-reaches of the South. Southeastern Ohio is part of Appalachia and Toledo seems to be part of the Upper Midwest, with their long association with Michigan.
There's a saying that goes around town: east of Public Square is Northeastern; west of PS is Midwestern. Culturally and even typographically, this seems to hold up.
There's a saying that goes around town: east of Public Square is Northeastern; west of PS is Midwestern. Culturally and even typographically, this seems to hold up.
I presume you meant topographically, not typographically. Culturally, I'm not so certain the east/west distinction is so pronounced, especially compared to the north/south distinction.
For example, there is no place in Ohio with more typically and historically progressive New England values than Oberlin, west of Cleveland in Lorain County. The Firelands also were settled by New Englanders, with many communities named after counterparts in Connecticut.
Search for "first settlers" here, almost always referred to as of New England origin.
Perhaps what makes the East Side seem more typically New England was the legacy of the great wealth that resided there and the more concentrated Jewish and African American populations. E.g., I'm not certain there is much difference between the character of say, Ashtabula and Lorain counties. And I don't know why Jews and African Americans found the East Side more welcoming, although it might have had something to do with a greater degree of racial and religious tolerance.
The old Western Reserve, which included the Firelands, generally IMO seems to be more similar to New England than areas to the south of its borders. This is enhanced by the great numbers of Irish and Central and Eastern European ethnic groups that settled in Cleveland. The cosmopolitan nature of Greater Cleveland certainly is not typical of vast swaths of Ohio and of the Midwest.
The ethnic diversity of Cleveland was further enriched by the Great African American Migration of the 20th century.
<<Between 1910 and 1930, the African-American population increased by about forty percent in Northern states as a result of the migration, mostly in the major cities. The cities of Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Baltimore, and New York City had some of the biggest increases in the early part of the twentieth century.>>
I presume you meant topographically, not typographically. Culturally, I'm not so certain the east/west distinction is so pronounced, especially compared to the north/south distinction.
For example, there is no place in Ohio with more typically and historically progressive New England values than Oberlin, west of Cleveland in Lorain County. The Firelands also were settled by New Englanders, with many communities named after counterparts in Connecticut.
No, I actually meant culturally as well. I'm really focusing on Cleveland (mainly) and Cuyahoga County and a few other nearby areas such as Hudson (which is in-your-face New England-y, as are suburbs/towns like Gates Mills, Chagrin Falls and Moreland Hills) and parts of Lake and Portage Counties... I know historically we East Siders tend to look down on our noses on the West Side culturally. While I realize that is a snobby and unfair attitude to a degree (esp with the migration of a lot of East Siders to the hip/cool trendy areas west of the river like Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, Edgewater, Gold Coast/eastern Lakewood, etc), there is some truth to it. Consider that the overwhelming weight of cultural institutions are in the East -- Playhouse Square, University Circle, all the major colleges and universities except B-W (Oberlin is really too far away to seem like Cleveland, plus see more on Oberlin below), plus artsy neighborhoods in Cleveland Hts, Shaker, Shaker Square/Larchmere, etc. The West Side does have some, esp the aforementioned trendy neighborhoods, but the East Side has considerably more.
And like it or not, even though the West Side has seen a sharp rise in African Americans and Latino Americans, as well as the LGBTQ community (all in defined pockets of the West Side), the West Side (esp areas like West Park/Kamms Corners) and several old-line western suburbs still have an aura of intolerance racially, ethnically and even culturally. The East Side, esp several suburbs like Shaker, CH, Beachwood, etc, have a reputation of open-mindedness on these issues. And as you know, the Northeast/NE/Mid-Atlantic are more "blue" progressive/liberal while the Midwest is more "red" conservative/intolerant.
All said, the West Side just "seems" more like Detroit or KC or Milwaukee or even Chicago (yes Chicago has tons of culture, but East Coast culture?)... whereas Cleveland East and eastern suburbs feels more like Philly and the Main Line or Boston/Brookline/Newton/Wellesley or NYC and Westchester County/Connecticut --> and there's that Western Reserve thing!
As for Oberlin, I tend to ignore college towns because for major, progressive colleges and universities in small town America, they tend to be island-like anomalies in relation to the state and regions where they are located -- ie Oberlin has a liberal/radical reputation while southern Lorain County is rural and conservative... ditto with such schools as Grinnell College (Iowa cornfields), Kenyon, University of Texas, Austin (Texas! 'nuff said), Quaker/liberal/progressive Earlham College (southern friggin Indiana), etc., etc.
Last edited by TheProf; 04-30-2018 at 09:46 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
