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Yeah I certainly wasn't trashing CLE, the opposite in fact. I now see what Minervah is getting on you about... how did you pull overall negatives out of my posts?
And WRNative is 100% spot-on. I am new here, with an outsiders perspective. I am also very unaware of the extent to CLE's massive turnaround. 1B in Uni Circle? WOW!!! These tidbits definitely shift/inform my opinions on CLE's trends.
Also... spoiled? Yes I've lived in some very wealthy metro's... but mostly in the ghetto's and lower-middle class neighborhoods. You know what living in North Richmond, CA is like? Or the South Side of Chicago? Nothing to be envious about. I'm not even sure what else to say about it... I lived in small apartments around virtual food deserts in these cities (zero amenities) and now I own a home and have like 4 or 5 nice grocery stores with 5 minutes of me. Plus two luxury shopping centers a short drive away. Not to mention all that Uni Circle offers. My QOL here is 1000% better.
Look, I have noticed the "inferiority complex" in CLE that you questioned about -- and that you seem to be suffering from. I told you it was strange because it is largely unwarranted (imo). Yes, CLE has a rough history (hence my reputation comment) and some serious issues that it still needs to iron out -- and that I'm still learning about fully myself (see above).
But my point was, so do all of these "nicer" places! I mean, damn, I moved here from those places after all! Can we let this thread die now??
PS. And in rereading my long post where I mentioned CLE could use some gentrification... that needs more context and shouldn't be taken outright as it stands. Better left for a more focused conversation on CLE's future.
I re-read your original post and realized that I came off a little defensive. Also, I realize that I was wrong for making assumptions and misjudging you in my reply, and for that I apologize.
Portland has a racial diversity problem. So it will never be as large as cities that do not have that problem. One interesting thing about Portland is that there are more Asians than there are Blacks, although the difference is slight. As successful as Portland was in promoting an eclectic, weird image to the world their successes could be the same thing that holds them back. I have also heard that Seattle has a similar problem but it is a larger city so those issues should be easier to navigate there than they are in a city like Portland. The Northwest, in general, has an image of cultural diversity that exists in the idiosyncrasy of a lack of racial integration, considering the progressive nature of the area. No doubt if (Portland) could have their way it would be a city of millions of Caucasians but in this day and age that is unlikely to happen.
The Rust Belt has unusually high taxes. Companies do not want to relocate there due to this and a lot of the tech companies that were there, such as NCR when it based out of Dayton, OH, move to the South where they can avoid unions, taxes, and a lot of the other baggage that comes with being in the Rust Belt, such as aging infrastructure, segregation, etc.
I find what you write about racial diversity and segregation in the rust belt interesting.
One thing I have appreciated about living in the metro-D.C. area is that it seems to be relatively well integrated, even if it's not perfect. D.C. has a HUGE middle class African American population, even an affluent African American population. Whatever stereotypes I had about African Americans completely dissipated after I moved here, and I've come to see socio-economic problems in terms of class rather than color. There are educated whites and there are rednecks and trailer trash. There are affluent, professional blacks and there are "ghetto-class" blacks. It's no longer about color for me.
I, personally, feel that my life has been enriched by the friendships I've had with African Americans. I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion, it's just that life is a lot easier and nicer when you're comfortable and can make connections with a greater number of people.
I'm always shocked when I go back to visit the Midwest to see the level of segregation there. This is true even in big, supposedly-enlightened cities like Chicago.
Earlier on the thread I asked if racial issues were a big issue in Cleveland, and I was told not so much. I sincerely hope that is correct, because I'd feel like I was missing out on something, otherwise.
There are many things I dislike about D.C., but I do appreciate the way my friendships and universe have expanded after living here all these years.
I find what you write about racial diversity and segregation in the rust belt interesting.
One thing I have appreciated about living in the metro-D.C. area is that it seems to be relatively well integrated, even if it's not perfect. D.C. has a HUGE middle class African American population, even an affluent African American population. Whatever stereotypes I had about African Americans completely dissipated after I moved here, and I've come to see socio-economic problems in terms of class rather than color. There are educated whites and there are rednecks and trailer trash. There are affluent, professional blacks and there are "ghetto-class" blacks. It's no longer about color for me.
I, personally, feel that my life has been enriched by the friendships I've had with African Americans. I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion, it's just that life is a lot easier and nicer when you're comfortable and can make connections with a greater number of people.
I'm always shocked when I go back to visit the Midwest to see the level of segregation there. This is true even in big, supposedly-enlightened cities like Chicago.
Earlier on the thread I asked if racial issues were a big issue in Cleveland, and I was told not so much. I sincerely hope that is correct, because I'd feel like I was missing out on something, otherwise.
There are many things I dislike about D.C., but I do appreciate the way my friendships and universe have expanded after living here all these years.
This is what I like about Virginia overall.
Your stereotypes about African-Americans may have been due to living and working in areas where the socioeconomic and sociopolitical challenges they face were a lot greater than they are in the MidAtlantic. I lived in Madison, WI at a time when it was only 2% Black. Beautiful city. I encountered Blacks moving there from Chicago and Milwaukee. It is still an interesting city, but I did witness issues there I was not directly affected but it did take me back a bit. This was like over 20 years ago, so I would imagine that things are a bit different there now.
The Midwest has some serious challenges to encounter when it comes to segregation that people would rather stick their head in the sand and maybe it would go away. Like a deer you encounter that is catatonic, so maybe you do not see him. Racism Blacks encounter up there is institutionalized and overt.
The South has made deliberate, intentional advances on the issue which is something that the North flat out refuses to do. The North is more of a live and let live, people will figure things out on their own type of atmosphere. It fails to see that this is one of the reasons why so many Blacks have either returned to the South or moved to the South. And the ripple effect is that it makes the South hospitable to other minority groups as well. It isn't perfect, but it is acknowledged. What happened in Philadelphia at Starbucks is typical of the situations one will encounter up North. Were it not for the current SWJ climate we are in, I seriously doubt that anyone would be talking about it.
As far as Cleveland not so much, but then again Cleveland is half Black, and a lot of the suburbs you will see where there was White and Black flight from the city into those areas. Cleveland proper was always bad; not just the crack era of the eighties and nineties but going back, way back, probably closer to WWII if not earlier. No different than Chicago though. People are living Downtown again, which is also occurring in Chicago. But the Downtown areas of both cities is not a indication of what is going on in the outer neighborhoods. Likewise the inner ring suburbs are becoming more urban and turning into full fledged cities, in both instances.
Your stereotypes about African-Americans may have been due to living and working in areas where the socioeconomic and sociopolitical challenges they face were a lot greater than they are in the MidAtlantic. I lived in Madison, WI at a time when it was only 2% Black. Beautiful city. I encountered Blacks moving there from Chicago and Milwaukee. It is still an interesting city, but I did witness issues there I was not directly affected but it did take me back a bit. This was like over 20 years ago, so I would imagine that things are a bit different there now.
The Midwest has some serious challenges to encounter when it comes to segregation that people would rather stick their head in the sand and maybe it would go away. Like a deer you encounter that is catatonic, so maybe you do not see him. Racism Blacks encounter up there is institutionalized and overt.
The South has made deliberate, intentional advances on the issue which is something that the North flat out refuses to do. The North is more of a live and let live, people will figure things out on their own type of atmosphere. It fails to see that this is one of the reasons why so many Blacks have either returned to the South or moved to the South. And the ripple effect is that it makes the South hospitable to other minority groups as well. It isn't perfect, but it is acknowledged. What happened in Philadelphia at Starbucks is typical of the situations one will encounter up North. Were it not for the current SWJ climate we are in, I seriously doubt that anyone would be talking about it.
As far as Cleveland not so much, but then again Cleveland is half Black, and a lot of the suburbs you will see where there was White and Black flight from the city into those areas. Cleveland proper was always bad; not just the crack era of the eighties and nineties but going back, way back, probably closer to WWII if not earlier. No different than Chicago though. People are living Downtown again, which is also occurring in Chicago. But the Downtown areas of both cities is not a indication of what is going on in the outer neighborhoods. Likewise the inner ring suburbs are becoming more urban and turning into full fledged cities, in both instances.
I find your insights interesting and agree with much of what you write. It doesn't surprise me that you live in Virginia, as that is greater-D.C. So you know exactly what I'm talking about. There's a lot more that I could say on this topic, but I don't want to hijack the thread!
But I will give one good example of the unconscious racism I see in big cities in the North:
I have a brother in Chicago who is extremely wealthy. His wife sits on the board of a foundation that purports to help inner city schools. Yet there is not a single black or Latino on the board. How do you help people if you don't have any representatives from the communities that you are trying to help! Are there really no qualified blacks or Latinos in the city of Chicago who could sit on that Board!
I find your insights interesting and agree with much of what you write. It doesn't surprise me that you live in Virginia, as that is greater-D.C. So you know exactly what I'm talking about. There's a lot more that I could say on this topic, but I don't want to hijack the thread!
But I will give one good example of the unconscious racism I see in big cities in the North:
I have a brother in Chicago who is extremely wealthy. His wife sits on the board of a foundation that purports to help inner city schools. Yet there is not a single black or Latino on the board. How do you help people if you don't have any representatives from the communities that you are trying to help! Are there really no qualified blacks or Latinos in the city of Chicago who could sit on that Board!
Chicago has a growing Latino population so it is troubling that there are not any on the board. As far as Blacks, I don't know what to say about that it seems that a lot of the strides that were taken when the city had its first Black mayor; I don't know. But it sounds like a private effort so there probably is no federal mandate for them to have people of color anyway.
Your stereotypes about African-Americans may have been due to living and working in areas where the socioeconomic and sociopolitical challenges they face were a lot greater than they are in the MidAtlantic. I lived in Madison, WI at a time when it was only 2% Black. Beautiful city. I encountered Blacks moving there from Chicago and Milwaukee. It is still an interesting city, but I did witness issues there I was not directly affected but it did take me back a bit. This was like over 20 years ago, so I would imagine that things are a bit different there now.
The Midwest has some serious challenges to encounter when it comes to segregation that people would rather stick their head in the sand and maybe it would go away. Like a deer you encounter that is catatonic, so maybe you do not see him. Racism Blacks encounter up there is institutionalized and overt.
The South has made deliberate, intentional advances on the issue which is something that the North flat out refuses to do. The North is more of a live and let live, people will figure things out on their own type of atmosphere. It fails to see that this is one of the reasons why so many Blacks have either returned to the South or moved to the South. And the ripple effect is that it makes the South hospitable to other minority groups as well. It isn't perfect, but it is acknowledged. What happened in Philadelphia at Starbucks is typical of the situations one will encounter up North. Were it not for the current SWJ climate we are in, I seriously doubt that anyone would be talking about it.
As far as Cleveland not so much, but then again Cleveland is half Black, and a lot of the suburbs you will see where there was White and Black flight from the city into those areas. Cleveland proper was always bad; not just the crack era of the eighties and nineties but going back, way back, probably closer to WWII if not earlier. No different than Chicago though. People are living Downtown again, which is also occurring in Chicago. But the Downtown areas of both cities is not a indication of what is going on in the outer neighborhoods. Likewise the inner ring suburbs are becoming more urban and turning into full fledged cities, in both instances.
It's still largely the same in Madison. There really is no (very tiny) middle-class AA community, and almost all of it is attached to the UW. Cost of living is rapidly increasing and the city is doing a terrible job managing the disparity. Lot's of our AA friends have moved south, some even back to Chicago.
In the east suburbs here in CLE, it's about 50/50 which is nice but still not a whole lot of shared culture or community. White folks seem to be unhappy the demographics are shifting and Black folks seem to just not care much (generalizations). It's nice for us to live around more AA's but honestly nowhere in CLE does race feel very harmonious or fluid. Though... that's true for pretty much everywhere I've lived.
It's still largely the same in Madison. There really is no (very tiny) middle-class AA community, and almost all of it is attached to the UW. Cost of living is rapidly increasing and the city is doing a terrible job managing the disparity. Lot's of our AA friends have moved south, some even back to Chicago.
In the east suburbs here in CLE, it's about 50/50 which is nice but still not a whole lot of shared culture or community. White folks seem to be unhappy the demographics are shifting and Black folks seem to just not care much (generalizations). It's nice for us to live around more AA's but honestly nowhere in CLE does race feel very harmonious or fluid. Though... that's true for pretty much everywhere I've lived.
In the east suburbs here in CLE, it's about 50/50 which is nice but still not a whole lot of shared culture or community. White folks seem to be unhappy the demographics are shifting and Black folks seem to just not care much (generalizations). It's nice for us to live around more AA's but honestly nowhere in CLE does race feel very harmonious or fluid. Though... that's true for pretty much everywhere I've lived
I guess it’s all pretty relative to where one has lived before. Compared to Portland where I could go for months seeing only white faces, Cleveland is very different. I have Black neighbors I talk to almost every day. Maybe it’s the circumstances under which I live which is senior housing. Everyone pretty much socializes with everyone.
In Cleveland, I see Black people in government office and on local TV shows like the news and such. That’s not very common in Portland. I can understand why you would think that’s really not total integration of an entire population because having lived in Chicago prior to moving to Portland it was the way you describe the cities you’ve lived in including Cleveland. Still to me, it’s such a huge change from Portland it feels like there is total integration in Cleveland by comparison.
I guess it’s all pretty relative to where one has lived before. Compared to Portland where I could go for months seeing only white faces, Cleveland is very different. I have Black neighbors I talk to almost every day. Maybe it’s the circumstances under which I live which is senior housing. Everyone pretty much socializes with everyone.
In Cleveland, I see Black people in government office and on local TV shows like the news and such. That’s not very common in Portland. I can understand why you would think that’s really not total integration of an entire population because having lived in Chicago prior to moving to Portland it was the way you describe the cities you’ve lived in including Cleveland. Still to me, it’s such a huge change from Portland it feels like there is total integration in Cleveland by comparison.
Haha... well yeah... apples and oranges.
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You know what living in North Richmond, CA is like? Or the South Side of Chicago? Nothing to be envious about. I'm not even sure what else to say about it... I lived in small apartments around virtual food deserts in these cities (zero amenities) and now I own a home and have like 4 or 5 nice grocery stores with 5 minutes of me. Plus two luxury shopping centers a short drive away. Not to mention all that Uni Circle offers. My QOL here is 1000% better.
