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Having listened to the Issue 24 debate at the City Club and broadcast on WVIZ yesterday, I would not vote for it if I were a Cleveland resident. Any Cleveland resident should listen to the video before voting.
My three biggest takeaways were: 1) Cleveland's already serious police understaffing problem likely will be compounded if Issue 24 passes; 2) significant police reforms have been implemented in Cleveland since 2015 which are having a measurable impact on police performance and oversight; 3) Issue 24 was largely drafted by a single individual who is a leading plaintiff's attorney in lawsuits against Cleveland police and the department.
One of the principle debate participants was Johnny E. Hamm, a Cleveland resident and police captain and a long-time participant in implementing Cleveland police reforms in consultation with organizations such as the Cleveland NAACP. Hamm emphasized two important points: 1) significant reforms have taken place since 2015, including the use of body cams; 2) at least 240 Cleveland police officers have 25 years of service and are eligible to retire at any time; he said that many more be eligible if prior public service jobs or military service are taken into account.
I didn't know that the Cleveland police now used body cams. They weren't in use at the time of the 2014 Tamir Rice killing, which rightfully IMO has caused much of the public distrust of the Cleveland police department. The body cameras were purchased and implemented in early 2015.
The principle drafter of Issue 24 reportedly was Subidh Chandra, Founder and Managing Partner of The Chandra Law Firm, LLC. Chandra is a former Cleveland Law Director and has represented the Tamir Rice family and estate in its legal actions against the Cleveland Police Department.
Chandra argued that Issue 24 would save Cleveland much money in legal settlements and legal proceedings. Current Cleveland Law Director Barbara Longhern took exception to this claim and said that since reforms implemented in 2015, legal settlements have been negligible, and Chandra didn't challenge her claim. Longhern also disagreed with Chandra's claim that more recent complaints against Cleveland police officers, including complaints of the use of derogatory language, weren't being properly resolved (I wondered how there could be a factual dispute over derogatory language if audio now was being recorded). Hamm noted that if significant resignations occurred, that it could be costly to fully staff the Cleveland police department once again.
The Cleveland police department currently is significantly understaffed and pays lower starting salaries than at least several suburbs with much less demanding job environments.
Hamm noted that Issue 24 provides no defined procedures for police discipline and that Cleveland suffered large numbers of police resignations before the Republican National Convention out of fear of possible events. He seemed certain that passage of Issue 24 also would trigger a wave of resignations, perhaps his own. Passage of Issue 24 may greatly compound the difficulty of attracting Cleveland police department recruits.
Given Issue 24's budgetary, oversight, and subordination of the Cleveland police department administration provisions, to say nothing of the appointment process issues discussed earlier in this thread, I personally believe a new mayor and City Council should be given the opportunity to reform police oversight authorities in Cleveland before Issue 24 or a similar initiative is passed. It bothers me significantly that one person largely drafted Issue 24 with little or no input from Cleveland police officials, whom I doubt are opposed to meaningful, workable reforms.
An emphasis in Cleveland needs to be placed on the costly effort to staff and train the police department. Excellent hires and and excellent training may resolve many of the issues facing the Cleveland police department. Only City Council and the mayor collectively can provide the funding necessary to well staff the Cleveland police department.
Cleveland and other metro areas also must politically campaign for the home rule measures needed to prevent gun violence in economically and socially challenged neighborhoods.
Personally, if Issue 24 passes and compounds understaffing problems in the Cleveland police department, I would become much more reluctant to attend events and visit downtown Cleveland. Given its independent police departments, I wouldn't have the same reluctance in University Circle.
Having listened to the Issue 24 debate at the City Club and broadcast on WVIZ yesterday, I would not vote for it if I were a Cleveland resident. Any Cleveland resident should listen to the video before voting.
My three biggest takeaways were: 1) Cleveland's already serious police understaffing problem likely will be compounded if Issue 24 passes; 2) significant police reforms have been implemented in Cleveland since 2015 which are having a measurable impact on police performance and oversight; 3) Issue 24 was largely drafted by a single individual who is a leading plaintiff's attorney in lawsuits against Cleveland police and the department.
One of the principle debate participants was Johnny E. Hamm, a Cleveland resident and police captain and a long-time participant in implementing Cleveland police reforms in consultation with organizations such as the Cleveland NAACP. Hamm emphasized two important points: 1) significant reforms have taken place since 2015, including the use of body cams; 2) at least 240 Cleveland police officers have 25 years of service and are eligible to retire at any time; he said that many more be eligible if prior public service jobs or military service are taken into account.
I didn't know that the Cleveland police now used body cams. They weren't in use at the time of the 2014 Tamir Rice killing, which rightfully IMO has caused much of the public distrust of the Cleveland police department. The body cameras were purchased and implemented in early 2015.
The principle drafter of Issue 24 reportedly was Subidh Chandra, Founder and Managing Partner of The Chandra Law Firm, LLC. Chandra is a former Cleveland Law Director and has represented the Tamir Rice family and estate in its legal actions against the Cleveland Police Department.
Chandra argued that Issue 24 would save Cleveland much money in legal settlements and legal proceedings. Current Cleveland Law Director Barbara Longhern took exception to this claim and said that since reforms implemented in 2015, legal settlements have been negligible, and Chandra didn't challenge her claim. Longhern also disagreed with Chandra's claim that more recent complaints against Cleveland police officers, including complaints of the use of derogatory language, weren't being properly resolved (I wondered how there could be a factual dispute over derogatory language if audio now was being recorded). Hamm noted that if significant resignations occurred, that it could be costly to fully staff the Cleveland police department once again.
The Cleveland police department currently is significantly understaffed and pays lower starting salaries than at least several suburbs with much less demanding job environments.
Hamm noted that Issue 24 provides no defined procedures for police discipline and that Cleveland suffered large numbers of police resignations before the Republican National Convention out of fear of possible events. He seemed certain that passage of Issue 24 also would trigger a wave of resignations, perhaps his own. Passage of Issue 24 may greatly compound the difficulty of attracting Cleveland police department recruits.
Given Issue 24's budgetary, oversight, and subordination of the Cleveland police department administration provisions, to say nothing of the appointment process issues discussed earlier in this thread, I personally believe a new mayor and City Council should be given the opportunity to reform police oversight authorities in Cleveland before Issue 24 or a similar initiative is passed. It bothers me significantly that one person largely drafted Issue 24 with little or no input from Cleveland police officials, whom I doubt are opposed to meaningful, workable reforms.
An emphasis in Cleveland needs to be placed on the costly effort to staff and train the police department. Excellent hires and and excellent training may resolve many of the issues facing the Cleveland police department. Only City Council and the mayor collectively can provide the funding necessary to well staff the Cleveland police department.
Cleveland and other metro areas also must politically campaign for the home rule measures needed to prevent gun violence in economically and socially challenged neighborhoods.
Personally, if Issue 24 passes and compounds understaffing problems in the Cleveland police department, I would become much more reluctant to attend events and visit downtown Cleveland. Given its independent police departments, I wouldn't have the same reluctance in University Circle.
This is a VERY good post IMO, with solid supporting research. I draw the same conclusions as you. To me, anything that risks triggering events that ultimately jeopardize public safety should be rejected.
The citizen oversight type arrangement is often part of a broader anti-police agenda…even if it does not appear that way on paper. Your research seems to bear that out.
Given the solid track record of police reforms since 2015, i agree it would be wise to let a new mayor and city council work on a continued reforms roadmap, without this legislation being rammed in pre-emptively.
In the absence of public safety, many of the “cool and fun” type discussions here on CLE restaurants, events, parks, etc. become moot points. IMO it should be in everyone’s interest to keep CLE as safe and vibrant as possible.
I will be following this closely, as I do a lot of stuff in CLE proper.
My former city (Portland) is a poster child for how NOT to maintain good police relations and favorable legislation…with predictable results.
I'm actually for Issue 24, it would be beneficial to Cleveland to have a committee to hold bad and corrupt cops accountable because, whether you or the cops realize it or not, the bad cops put the good cops at risk. Also, it is not to "defund the police" some people on this board are using that term too loosely. I went their website, and it doesn't say one thing about defending the police or cutting their budget. I'm going to vote for Bibb because he's more in line with the views I have on how Cleveland can turn around. We've been trying it with a lot of these career politicians for decades and that's what Kelley comes off like to me. Time for Cleveland gets some new blood in City Hall.
Having reviewed Issue 24, I don't respect the judgement of anyone who would endorse it, so I wouldn't be able to vote for Bibb. If Bibb had said that he wanted to further police reforms, but that Issue 24 could do more harm than good, I would feel differently. Has Bibb addressed how Issue 24 might create an even larger staffing problem that could be very expensive to correct in an expeditious manner?
This is a VERY good post IMO, with solid supporting research. I draw the same conclusions as you. To me, anything that risks triggering events that ultimately jeopardize public safety should be rejected.
The citizen oversight type arrangement is often part of a broader anti-police agenda…even if it does not appear that way on paper. Your research seems to bear that out.
Given the solid track record of police reforms since 2015, i agree it would be wise to let a new mayor and city council work on a continued reforms roadmap, without this legislation being rammed in pre-emptively.
In the absence of public safety, many of the “cool and fun” type discussions here on CLE restaurants, events, parks, etc. become moot points. IMO it should be in everyone’s interest to keep CLE as safe and vibrant as possible.
I will be following this closely, as I do a lot of stuff in CLE proper.
My former city (Portland) is a poster child for how NOT to maintain good police relations and favorable legislation…with predictable results.
One year later, the mayor is asking for additional police resources to deal with unprecedented crime in a city that is struggling to keep merchants and citizens feeling safe.
Some critics accuse Cleveland mayoral candidate Keven Kelley and other Ohio Democratic candidates of racist attacks by accusing African American opponents of supporting "defunding the police."
<<The attack lines, appearing in political mailers and TV ads, are a common tactic for Republican candidates. But in this case, they’re coming from fellow Democrats.
The approach is dividing Ohio Democrats, with some accusing those within their party of helping to soften the ground for Republicans heading into the 2022 mid-terms while also reducing liberal police reforms into a catch-all, politically loaded slogan. Some party activists view the attacks, all used against non-white candidates, as racially coded or racist....
“This is not a partisan issue. This is something where, if you’re supporting a plan that prescribes an actual percentage of the police budget to go somewhere else, what else do we call that?” said Kelley, whose ads equate Issue 24, a police-reform initiative supported by his opponent, Justin Bibb, with “defunding the police.”>>
Kelley's justifies using the political tag line against opponent Justin Bibb because of the budget carve-outs required by Issue 24.
<<The measure would give an amount equal to 1% of the city’s police budget to a Civilian Review Board, which would investigate complaints against officers and have the power to order disciplinary action, and set aside another 0.5% for community grants. It also would set aside at least $1 million for a Community Policing Commission, which would have broad authority, including setting training regimens and procedures to auditing police investigative processes and recommending candidates for promotion.
Kelley said the changes could cost the cash-strapped city up to $4 million, provoke police retirements and further politicize policing. >>
I don't see how anyone can vote for a guy that never held a job for more than a year...Bibb bounces around job to job w/out any actual accomplishiments He has some decent ideas but how does he expect to accomplish them w/out any proof that he's accomplished anything hard to begin with? I also question his commitment to safety in the city if he's for issue 24...if 24 passes, you'll see a mass exodus from the Police dept...outside of maybe University Circle and maybe downtown and Edgewater in the summer, I would feel less safe going anywhere else in the city...if you're for 24, I don't see how you'll be able to slow down the skyrocketing crime rates.
Kevin Kelley is a business friendly politician...guess what, you need business friendly gov't at the city level It's going to take the local business community to get important stuff done.
An election morning video preview makes the interesting observation that Cleveland voters are looking "for a way out." This suggests that outsider Bibb may prevail against Jackson-endorsed Kelley.
We don't see poll approval ratings for the Jackson administration, so it's guess work whether Kelley will bear the burden of dissatisfaction with the current state of Cleveland's economy and society.
I don't see how anyone can vote for a guy that never held a job for more than a year...Bibb bounces around job to job w/out any actual accomplishiments He has some decent ideas but how does he expect to accomplish them w/out any proof that he's accomplished anything hard to begin with? I also question his commitment to safety in the city if he's for issue 24...if 24 passes, you'll see a mass exodus from the Police dept...outside of maybe University Circle and maybe downtown and Edgewater in the summer, I would feel less safe going anywhere else in the city...if you're for 24, I don't see how you'll be able to slow down the skyrocketing crime rates.
Kevin Kelley is a business friendly politician...guess what, you need business friendly gov't at the city level It's going to take the local business community to get important stuff done.
So, Friday night into early a.m. Saturday friends in town for Rock Hall induction ceremonies; standing outside at E 4/Prospect...several gunshots coming from the E 9/Prospect area...cop cars racing by...then an NFL player from the Ravens is in town on Saturday night-into early a.m. Sunday hours and is shot in the leg in the E 9/Rockwell area....
Cleveland best not go anywhere near this Issue 24 idiocy.
Cleveland needs to really consider the potential ramifications of a Bibb administration. Bibb has indeed bounced around from job to job in his long resume and short experience doing anything; this board, that board, here a job, there a job...all sounds really impressive until you look at actual accomplishments. I'm sorry but ''introducing or ''connecting'' this person to that person'' etc kinda thing doesn't make one able to lead and run a city on the cusp of an actual turn around despite its highest ''big city'' U.S. poverty rate.
Bibb was also a co-sponsor behind that Cleveland Rising Summit nonsense a few years ago as he worked as a VP at KeyBank..another short-term gig. Considered a disaster, Bibb was the KeyBank rep-sponsor for this grade school level event, which saw its attendance dwindle as attendees realized it was just a paid-for showcase-platform for the Case Business School ''progressive'' and nonsensical Appreciative Inquiry (yes, that's the name of it) business theory that Bibb is indoctrinated into. Really? A VP at KeyBank for about 17 months....?
This guy has never held a job for more than 2 years and his attendance record at meeting related to his board appointments at, for example, RTA is real spotty. Bibb explains his ''less than 2 years'' stint at any ''job'' as being a generational thing...huh?
Among other boards and other feathers in his cap, Bibb is now some CEO or whatever for this UrbanNova what-ever-it-is company in Spokane WA specializing in urban ''smart parks''...when ''sensors'' know to turn the lights down due to a lack of people in the park kinda thing...not sure exactly how Spokane WA translates to Cleveland...geez, I bet CLE gets at least a couple of ''smart parks'' in a Bibb administration.
Bibb is just too packaged, saying the right things, cloning Obama...that hand-chopping while speaking, that 2000 watt smile, and those glasses....lol...please pass over this guy. Being the Mayor of Cleveland will be just another feather in his cap title...
Maybe someone should remind Bibb that being the Mayor of Cleveland is 4 years.
For Cleveland's future sake:
No on Issue 24
No on Bibb
Is Cleveland, the poorest big city, ready for the Appreciate Inquiry business model (theory)?...consider the what went on at and results of that Cleveland Rising Summit...what happened to the Cleveland Rising organization?
What Cleveland needs is someone who can attract some of the relocating business production that is being considered post-pandemic as businesses realize that the cost of relocating at least some production domestically is worth it given the supply and transportation constraints we've been experiencing since March 2020.
You may or may not have a good point, but it is certain that you haven't explained let alone documented your point. Are you one of those dangerous idiots who believes that a political insult alone is sufficient to validate your point of view?
As obviously you are a "sleeper," (given your use of "woke fools") and therefore incapable of in-depth thought in my experience, I won't hold my breath awaiting an intelligent, documented explanation of your claims.
I would agree that Issue 24 is an abomination, but a political act of last resort resulting from incompetent administration of Cleveland's police force.
Yet I believe that much of Cleveland's crime problem results from insane gun laws foisted on Ohio's urban centers by largely rural, gerrymandered Republican legislators and recent Republican governors, and economic distress as a result of horrible, long-term federal taxation policies and the COVID epidemic, a disaster directly resulting from the anti-science, Trumpian policy responses and ridiculous cultural polarization.
Horsehead, here's how you document an argument, in the event you ever wake up even a little bit and actually attempt to engage in an informed discussion.
What is needed above all else is a mayor who campaigns against state and federal laws and policies that cripple Cleveland. Of course, this requires a mayor who well understands the big picture, and I don't know of a single Ohio politician who possesses that quality. E.g., where is the Ohio politician who explains how the robust policy responses in other nations have protected their people from the health and economic carnage of the COVID epidemic experienced in Ohio and, to a lesser, extent, in other U.S. states and the nation as a whole. What U.S. politician has focused on the health crisis represented by long COVID sequelae?
Cleveland needs a mayor, who, with other Ohio urban leaders, campaigns for the restoration of "home rule" in Ohio. It has been effectively demolished in Ohio despite its constitutional provision by Republican legislators enabled by Republican political Ohio Supreme Court justices.
Bwahahahahaaha Gerrymander, what? Gun laws? Those of us in red Ohio don't shoot each other. When someone in red Ohio is shot by a stranger, you had better believe 4 of every 5 were shot by a "travelling Democrat", know that. Your irrelevant comments have nothing to do with CLE's problems, my deflecting friend.
You haven't a clue. Clevelanders cripple Cleveland more than anything.
The police force just needs more cops, and some very few bad ones retired.
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"Defund the police?"
