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(re: Ferraris' comments about the Opportunity Corridor and attracting more RTA riders, notably by completing the proposed RTA Waterfront rail line Loop)
Per the proposal, downtown-bound trains from the East (notably the Blue/Green Lines) would rise from the current ROW up to E. 22nd, then head north on that street (likely center island) to a station/stop near Woodland (serving both Tri-C and the St. Vincent Quad)… they would travel north and somehow zig-zag over to E. 18 (or 17th, but probably E. 18) up to Euclid and CSU; probably with an intermediate station stop before Euclid. A couple problems:
Trains would be on the surface at least minimally interacting with auto traffic as there are many cross streets and parking. But the BIGGEST problem would be crossing main streets like Carnegie and Prospect, where you can bet: 1. Trains would NOT get signal priority (we don’t even give signal priority to trains at Shaker Square/Shaker Heights, nor do we do so for the more recent high-profile Healthline BRT, so you can bet there won’t be such prioritization for this Waterfront Line Loop. The problem would only worsen during rush hour when likely, the bulk of travelers would use the Waterfront Loop – honestly, given Cleveland’s ‘car first’ mentality, the locals would tolerate non-rush hour traffic signaling along Carnegie (esp) or even Prospect during rush hour periods??
While trains traveling along E. 18th would serve CSU students and faculty (slowly, as noted, given the traffic lights), they wouldn’t get riders either any closer to the E. 9th Street banking/business corridor (than the current Tower City Rapid station), and they would, minimally, get them closer to Playhouse Square (there still would be a healthy walk and many would likely opt to transfer to the Healthline or E-Line Trolley toward Public Square.
Note, these above-referenced ‘problems’ are just for Shaker (Blue-Green) direct 1-seat riders. Imagine if you were coming from the heavier Red Line and forced to transfer at, say, Tower City, E. 34/Tri-C or E. 55? But what about a Universal Rapid Car that could directly access the WL Loop from the Red Line? Fine. … but then, can you imagine the crush of rail traffic along E. 22nd and E.18th cutting across the grain (and stopping for long waits at traffic lights) crossing Prospect, Euclid and Carnegie!? I can just picture in my mind those old-time photos of Euclid Ave with streetcars lined up packed with people – in the modern scenario of this new WL Loop, trains would be backed up all right, but they would hardly be full. You think fussy drive-first Clevelanders would opt out of their precious autos … for this? Really? ... Red, Blue and Green line trains often back up during rush hours and before/after Browns' games on the current high-speed entry into Tower City/downtown... Imagine how this would be with extra trains along against-the-grain streets stopping at traffic lights? ... can you say: nightmare?
The point being, the ONLY way such a loop would work would be for it to be in a subway (to speed service) and not on the surface interfacing with auto traffic and, really, it would need to be much closer to the Playhouse Square and E. 9th Street corridors to make any sense, on top of this… The current plan to just throw up a Waterfront Loop just so it will look nice on a map is not well throughout for reasons noted above.
And that reminds me of an ADDITIONAL NOTE: one group of guys, forget their organization, did propose a subway extension of the Red Line (while maintaining it as a heavy-rail/high platform operation btw) … they wisely noted that in building the planned surface LRT Waterfront Line Loop as some see as a panacea, the E. 22nd Street bridge over the Inner Belt would have to be replaced to support the much heavier trains – to the tune of 10s of $Billions … on top of all the problems noted, above, how do you think this will sit with the populace of a declining-population city.
As for downtown having only one rail station, currently, this is a misnomer. The current (now temporarily shutdown) Waterfront Line serves downtown station stops at Flats East Bank (where the 20 Story E-Y tower (plus A-Loft hotel) currently sits. The WL also serves E. 9th, where the station is literally at the back door of City Hall, across the street from the huge North Point office tower and just a block and a half away from the 40-story Celebrezze Federal tower (among several other offices thrown in … btw, the Settler’s Landing serves a number of warehouse-converted offices, too. Besides, the Flats, in general, and esp Flats East Bank, are really considered ‘downtown’ as it is.
But as we know, even in good times, people rarely used the WL. Of course, the problem was never really that the WL didn’t serve places where people wanted to go, because it intimately serves those areas. The problem was there was too much cheap parking (ie $5/day … if that) so, as usual, commuters who often live 5-to-10 minute walk/drive from a Rapid line and worked or commuted to the Flats and/or points served by the WL, usually decided they had to have their 2-ton Tin Lizzie, as though it were an article of clothing or the like. I know this to be true because I was aware of a number of people in Beachwood and Shaker who worked, for example, in North Point who opted to drive… no, there were no kids, daycare or the like… they just wanted to be in their cars. And this was in the newer heyday of the WL when trains ran during rush hour every 12 minutes… (you can’t argue with such frequency on a 2.2-mile line with 1-seat rides for Shaker/Shaker Square/Beachwood, lower Cleve Hts, Univ. Hts, Warrensville Hts, etc… directly to those downtown destinations.
And yet people, including some on this board, continue to blame RTA for this problem. No; that's ridiculous... Again, I ask: what more incentives to ride trains do people want? It seems like Clevelanders yearn for the city to be more like Detroit or Houston then like Chicago, Boston, Philly or SF. ... sad, I say.
I say: make the Waterfront Line we already have work. Now that the East Bank is being restored to glory, people are packing the Flats on weekends once again, especially in warm summer months. It even seems crazier than the good old days of the 1990s when the Flats really became a Thing (esp with the new clubs in/around the Aloft Hotel, which are as jammed as those along the new Boardwalk on the Cuyahoga. … but there are No Waterfront Trains at all… and, no, this is not because of the newly discovered WL bridge deterioration/problem … this has been the case for years, esp under Joe Calabrese (when he decided the part-time, corporate-subsidized Trolleys were the solution. And now both Calabrese and the corporate-Trolley funding are gone … and, now, so are the Trolleys … so now, there is no public transit to the Flats at all…. On top of new draconian CPD-enforced driving blockades down there; … our only solution was to either hoof it from the Public Square Rapid station or park somewhere in the Warehouse District and walk down/uphill to/from the Flats. Makes sense, huh?
Hopefully once the long-planned Phase III of the Flats East Bank plan starts building a new mixed-use apartment-over-retail complex in the center of Phases I and II and, thereby, wiping out the huge surface parking lot in the middle… maybe THEN Cleveland Flats revelers will finally see the light and demand, and maybe even use sometimes, the existing Waterfront Line to the FEB … like riders did in those good old days of the late 1990s… we can only dream.
As for downtown having only one rail station, currently, this is a misnomer. The current (now temporarily shutdown) Waterfront Line serves downtown station stops at Flats East Bank (where the 20 Story E-Y tower (plus A-Loft hotel) currently sits. The WL also serves E. 9th, where the station is literally at the back door of City Hall, across the street from the huge North Point office tower and just a block and a half away from the 40-story Celebrezze Federal tower (among several other offices thrown in … btw, the Settler’s Landing serves a number of warehouse-converted offices, too. Besides, the Flats, in general, and esp Flats East Bank, are really considered ‘downtown’ as it is.
I am just worried that the WL will change from "suspended indefinitely" to "permanently shuttered".
I know those other rail stops exist, which is why I mentioned that retaining the WL is important to me. I did use it to get to those other parts of downtown. At least I used it when I could. I remember sometimes the WL would cut off pretty early, which didn't work well for a night in the Flats.
Extending the WL to loop, or getting a universal rail car tech, or adding more underground steps would all be cool, but I am not holding my breath.
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And yet people, including some on this board, continue to blame RTA for this problem. No; that's ridiculous... Again, I ask: what more incentives to ride trains do people want? It seems like Clevelanders yearn for the city to be more like Detroit or Houston then like Chicago, Boston, Philly or SF. ... sad, I say.
I don't know if this was directed at me specifically. While I do have complaints, I don't really blame RTA the organization since I know they have to work within the limitations of their funding and within the local car culture/car infrastructure. The fare payment system and lack of a reloadable smart card is probably my only complaint that they can realistically do anything about. Even that would take funding, but not an unimaginable amount.
We actually talked about this a little over a year ago here (posts 25 and 36 specifically). At least RTA has updated their website. Maybe someone over their lurks on City-Data
But the BIGGEST problem would be crossing main streets like Carnegie and Prospect, where you can bet: 1. Trains would NOT get signal priority (we don’t even give signal priority to trains at Shaker Square/Shaker Heights, nor do we do so for the more recent high-profile Healthline BRT, so you can bet there won’t be such prioritization for this Waterfront Line Loop.
Did the Healthline originally have signal priority and then it was taken away?
Did the Shaker rapids ever have signal priority? It seems like it would be a very minor inconvenience for drivers. I guess if the train causes the lights to turn red, but then it has to stop to (de)board riders before going through the intersection, that it could take a "long" time, but would it really be that big of a problem?
Did the Healthline originally have signal priority and then it was taken away?
Did the Shaker rapids ever have signal priority? It seems like it would be a very minor inconvenience for drivers. I guess if the train causes the lights to turn red, but then it has to stop to (de)board riders before going through the intersection, that it could take a "long" time, but would it really be that big of a problem?
Wouldn't it be a great statement if Mayor Bibb finalizes the potential of the Healthline by getting its traffic priority signal system established?
I am just worried that the WL will change from "suspended indefinitely" to "permanently shuttered".
You got that right, buddy. I am sweating the same thing.
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Originally Posted by ferraris
I know those other rail stops exist, which is why I mentioned that retaining the WL is important to me. I did use it to get to those other parts of downtown. At least I used it when I could. I remember sometimes the WL would cut off pretty early, which didn't work well for a night in the Flats.
Extending the WL to loop, or getting a universal rail car tech, or adding more underground steps would all be cool, but I am not holding my breath.
If I find the website of this organization that advocated a short Red Line subway, I'll post it. The plan traveled along a route that, ironically, was similar to the initial plan when the Red Line (then the CTS Rapid Transit) was proposed in the 1940s. These guys noted that the Red Line as a high-platform operation should be maintained for faster boarding efficiency, better disability user train access, as well as added prestige for Cleveland ... something mere light rail does not.
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Originally Posted by ferraris
I don't know if this was directed at me specifically.
Absolutely not; you're a transit supporter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferraris
While I do have complaints, I don't really blame RTA the organization since I know they have to work within the limitations of their funding and within the local car culture/car infrastructure. The fare payment system and lack of a reloadable smart card is probably my only complaint that they can realistically do anything about. Even that would take funding, but not an unimaginable amount.
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Originally Posted by ferraris
We actually talked about this a little over a year ago here (posts 25 and 36 specifically).
Indeed. ... yes, I'm being redundant, but some of the things done in this City to harm rail riding is beyond incredible. ie/again: I still can't believe the WL passes directly in front of the giant windows of our recently rehabbed and expanded (Huntington Bank) convention center... with no connection at all -- temp-controlled overhead walkway ... nothing. This is a collective failure of city officials and planners, together. I can't blame RTA alone on this, although having Calabrese as GM 18 years certainly was a major drag on the entire transit system -- esp rail, which he seemed hell-bent on hurting... Transit can lead the way: case in point: Ron Tober, who preceded Joe as GM, advocated Tower City have a block-long below-surface and underground walkway to the then proposed new Cavs basketball arena across Huron Rd. & Ontario... the result was the current passageway named for Tober. Not only is this super convenient for Rapid riders and encourages train patronage, it literally was a major lynchpin in getting the Gateway project built, which has been a major boon for Cleveland -- some believe it jumpstarted the current downtown renaissance.
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Originally Posted by ferraris
At least RTA has updated their website. Maybe someone over their lurks on City-Data
Did the Healthline originally have signal priority and then it was taken away?
Did the Shaker rapids ever have signal priority? It seems like it would be a very minor inconvenience for drivers. I guess if the train causes the lights to turn red, but then it has to stop to (de)board riders before going through the intersection, that it could take a "long" time, but would it really be that big of a problem?
Signal priority for the Healthline was discussed initially, but I believe RTA and the City caved in the face of criticism from the pro-car crowd. ...
... However, as far as I know, growing up in/around Shaker Heights, the Shaker Rapid lines has never had signal priority (and I've never heard it seriously discussed, outside of a few rail advocates without power... That is one major advantage of the Waterfront Line -- although it travels along the surface and crosses streets as do the outer Shaker Lines, the WL is (standard) railroad gate/signal (flashing red lings/bells) protected, so trains have absolute priority and may travel unimpeded.
Now Blue-Green Line service is a mess. Not only have traffic signals been updated to give drivers (much) more priority (both at Shaker Square and then new Van Aken District at Farnsleigh), RTA practices have slowed trains to a crawl. Apparently, after a late-night collision between Blue and Green Line trains at the Van Aken junction, drivers on both lines and in both directions must stop (for several minutes) while they call in downtown to get vocal clearance to proceed through the junction... So a couple of negligent train drivers have further hampered service. You will often see trains stopped at Drexmore (Blue) and Coventry (Green) waiting for clearance to proceed... I've been on trains that have taken over 10 minutes just to pass from Drexmore or Coventry and the Shaker Square station. A pedestrian can easily out-walk trains between these 2 points... the parallel RTA No. 14 bus along Kinsman is now just about as fast, or faster, to/from than the Blue Line Rapid.
Problem is ... nobody seems to care about transit riders so nothing gets addressed on such issues.
Side note: with the exception of Farnsleigh and the new VAD reconfiguration of the roads, the traffic signals along Shaker and Van Aken Blvds are pretty well-timed and trains move along pretty smoothly. Shaker Square is a major problem, however. When the Square was purchased and (at the time) upgraded, the City of Cleveland had the traffic lights reconfigured to give priority to pedestrians and cars at the expense of trains -- on both SS roadways, the Rapid gets about 5-seconds of green light time vs. at least a minute each for cars. SS has become a major train bottleneck.
Signal priority for the Healthline was discussed initially, but I believe RTA and the City caved in the face of criticism from the pro-car crowd. ...
Yes, I thought signal priority was a part of CLE's original BRT plan. Wasn't it not implemented post-operation though and became a ''we'll get to that soon''?
Also, what happened to the fare payment system on the Healthline? Couldn't riders just easily enter a BRT vehilce via the front or middle doors? I heard this is no longer the case and riders now have to enter the front door and show proof of fare payment, thereby slowing down the ride up or down Euclid Avenue?
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
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Originally Posted by MPK21
Also, what happened to the fare payment system on the Healthline? Couldn't riders just easily enter a BRT vehi[cl]e via the front or middle doors? I heard this is no longer the case and riders now have to enter the front door and show proof of fare payment, thereby slowing down the ride up or down Euclid Avenue?
I ride the Health Line every day, and riders do often enter through the rear doors, then must proceed to the front to pay their fares. Most often in the downtown area, but sometimes at other points, too.
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