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I guess I'd add (for you and the other poster) that I don't know how it is in other states, but in the one I'm in, at least according to my department, it's actually the law that students be in attendance 87% of the time in order to receive college course credit. So, in the case of the example I gave, a class that meets for sixteen weeks, once a week for three hours, that equates to a student being allowed to be absent 13% of the time, which means six hours, which means two class periods.
Interesting. I have taught a couple of classes in my previous two states and that wasn't ever brought up. I've taught education classes and we were very, very strict about hours spent in the classroom because of certification laws, but not the classes themselves. Most students were pretty good about attending and the ones who weren't generally didn't do well academically anyway, so it wasn't an issue. Many of my students were non-traditional and switching over to education as a second career, so I suspect I had a very different demographic than you. I just assumed when they missed or were later that it was for job or family reasons, and I really think when you teach non-traditional students you have understand that your class is not their only priority, and sometimes it is even fairly low on their importance scale.
My boyfriend is also a community college instructor (he teaches a different subject than I do, though), and he's recently implemented the quiz thing in the first few minutes.
Interesting. I have taught a couple of classes in my previous two states and that wasn't ever brought up. I've taught education classes and we were very, very strict about hours spent in the classroom because of certification laws, but not the classes themselves. Most students were pretty good about attending and the ones who weren't generally didn't do well academically anyway, so it wasn't an issue. Many of my students were non-traditional and switching over to education as a second career, so I suspect I had a very different demographic than you. I just assumed when they missed or were later that it was for job or family reasons, and I really think when you teach non-traditional students you have understand that your class is not their only priority, and sometimes it is even fairly low on their importance scale.
What state are you in?
I'm in Texas. And as far as that law I mentioned: I don't know that it's a rigid law. As a matter of fact, it can't truly be, because I know many teachers who don't go by it. I don't even go by it, fully.
I use a variation of it, though. An absence after two absences means a grade penalty, doesn't mean the student is dropped. And even then, I bend if I consider other factors about the student that warrant bending. But I do it on a case-by-case basis.
The "law" was pre-written on my syllabus template though, which was given to me by my department, so it's something they meant to enforce, at least loosely, or else it wouldn't have been there.
I agree with you about teachers needing to understand that community colleges often have non-traditional students, and that expectations need to be adjusted (a little) accordingly. I would say I'm always considering that. It's impossible not to be aware of it every single day. Yet, I don't want to completely lower the standards based on that.
I think you were the one yourself who said that there is too much granting of degrees to people who aren't truly responsible or accountable, and employers are getting a raw deal when they hire someone who, because said person has a degree, they believe to be accountable and responsible.
That's why I try to uphold some standards for the college classroom and earning credit for the course. I want employers to get people like me, people who are hard-working, disciplined, and rarely call in sick. That means I have to create some semblance of that type of environment (and general standard) for the class.
I try to be understanding of the students' personal situations and still retain academic standards. It's hard to strike that balance, but it has to be done unless everyone wants the degree to mean even less than it already does.
A little story I will share:
Several semesters ago, I dropped a young man and woman from my class based on attendance. They went quietly, put up no fight. Both of them re-took my class the following semester and were there every single day. I'm not saying this would always happen, but...in the case of these particular people, they learned that half-assing college isn't going to work.
I think a lot of people who are way too fearful of being "insensitive" and "unsympathetic" would be surprised to find that for every non-traditional student who has two brothers in jail, is working three jobs, has two kids and is a single parent, there's one who's not that bad off but just isn't that motivated or disciplined about school. Many of them shape up fast after they face some serious consequences. They often shape up in ways that they never would, at any point, if people were constantly making excuses for them and otherwise being "enablers."
It's hard to predict who's got real life plight and who's just kind of an unmotivated person among the non-traditional students, but believe me, it's a mix of both, not all one or the other.
I think you were the one yourself who said that there is too much granting of degrees to people who aren't truly responsible or accountable, and employers are getting a raw deal when they hire someone who, because said person has a degree, they believe to be accountable and responsible.
I am the one who said that, but I was also the one who said that accountability and responsibility used to be intrinsic. When you take attendance that responsibility and accountability comes from extrinsic sources instead. As a boss I would want someone who is self driven, not one who I have to hold their feet to the fire to get work. I would want people who say to themselves "I have a report due next week, that means I need to start working on A, B, and C today" instead of me having to say "Bob you need to do A today by noon, then B by 3, and C before you leave for the day." College is supposed to produce employees that can be salaried and self directed, not employees that have to be clock punchers in order to assure they do their work. Taking attendance is a form of clock punching.
I get you are merely doing what is common practice and I understand why you do it. Much of it has been created by our current trend in public education of holding just the teachers responsible for student learning, rather than teaching students that the amount they learn and gain from school largely depends on their own choices. Degrees meant more when taking attendance was unnecessary and a limited number of research papers and/or exams were the only consideration for grades. That's still the way it works in most law schools and med schools.
I am the one who said that, but I was also the one who said that accountability and responsibility used to be intrinsic. When you take attendance that responsibility and accountability comes from extrinsic sources instead. As a boss I would want someone who is self driven, not one who I have to hold their feet to the fire to get work. I would want people who say to themselves "I have a report due next week, that means I need to start working on A, B, and C today" instead of me having to say "Bob you need to do A today by noon, then B by 3, and C before you leave for the day." College is supposed to produce employees that can be salaried and self directed, not employees that have to be clock punchers in order to assure they do their work. Taking attendance is a form of clock punching.
I get you are merely doing what is common practice and I understand why you do it. Much of it has been created by our current trend in public education of holding just the teachers responsible for student learning, rather than teaching students that the amount they learn and gain from school largely depends on their own choices. Degrees meant more when taking attendance was unnecessary and a limited number of research papers and/or exams were the only consideration for grades. That's still the way it works in most law schools and med schools.
And I totally get your point, too. (I got it originally, even). And I agree with what you're saying. It's better to get an employee whose responsibility/internal accountability is intrinsic, not one from whom it was forced.
But my rationale is...that student who "forced" himself/herself to go to class because it was policy, the same student who might not have gone as much if it weren't required....well, just that 'forcing' him or herself to go was a form of holding themselves accountable. They made it their duty to do what was necessary.
Granted, it's not as good as a student who would have gone even without being told it was a class policy, but it's still much better than the student who, even knowing it's class policy and that their grade is on the line, can't/doesn't buck up and meet the requirements. And the latter type definitely exists, and that is the type that is being weeded out.
Another thing about non-traditional students is that they often don't have a sense of what it takes to get a good, solid, thorough education. Some of them don't even totally get the benefit of coming to class very, very regularly. A teacher making it a class policy, you could say, is the teacher establishing what is good for the student, even if he or she doesn't realize it him or herself. And it's better from the students to benefit from it, even if they don't understand it, than to just be so mixed up/lost that he/she sinks in the class (but at least you "gave them the freedom" [to be absent]). I'd rather be strict, and have them have more in-class time than be less strict and have them do poorly. Community colleges care how many students drop classes and how much success happens. I know they don't turn out geniuses all the time, nor are the students perfect by any means, nor are they cream of the academic crop. But CCs want students to get through; they don't look favorably upon "half the class dropped" or "half the class stopped coming."
One of my friends has a partner whose elementary, middle school, and high school education was very sporadic. She says he missed a lot of school because of a weird family situation and a lot of moving around. She says he didn't get a solid education, and it shows, not just in his writing and speaking skills, but just in his life skills/discipline/initiative, etc.
I'd say the same holds true for a certain demographic of community college students. Being in class, very regularly, makes a difference in the quality of their education.
Since I wrote the original post, I had been cracking down on late comers and I have been attacked by all sides as racist, sexist and incompetent. A few have complained to the administration that I don't understand the needs of a single mother who is black or Hispanic. They told me to loosen up and let it slide!
I fully support, believe and respect MOST regional, cultural and ethnic stereotypes. I believe they are true most of the time! (And in a minority of times they are not true)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNature
Since I wrote the original post, I had been cracking down on late comers and I have been attacked by all sides as racist, sexist and incompetent. A few have complained to the administration that I don't understand the needs of a single mother who is black or Hispanic
so between friday the 7th and wednesday the 12th you've already had time to "crack down" and then have feedback filter through the administration? just how often per week do your 3 hour lectures meet?
something doesn't smell right to me. this all came up, with no related background whatsoever, in the past few days? coincidentally after the post quoted above?
Last edited by OdysseusNY; 06-12-2013 at 05:58 PM..
A lot of students think this way. But imagine how insulting and demoralizing it is for a teacher to be standing up in front of a a room trying to teach and looking out over people chatting, on their phones, looking at the internet, having some french fries, walking in and out, or dozing off.
In Asia, teachers are revered and respected.... perhaps that's why Asian students are generally higher achievers?
at the college level, the best asian students often try to study in the united states. moreover, this stereotype ignored the huge portion of the asian populace that don't even get the equivalent of a high school education, never mind college. but it's a nice convenient stereotype when bemoaning the modern day american student
if large portions of your students are eating fries, zoning out, IMing their friends then chances are good you're a mediocre teacher teaching mediocre material. unlike high school, where attendance is required, people have to make some sort of voluntary effort to attend community college. it's not some sort of hostile, captive audience
EDIT - ugh. these threads always degenerate. i'll just stick with my advice back when i thought this thread actually was about constructive suggestions on how to handle lateness. 1. pop quizzes 2. written policy 3. lose any preconceived notions of respect being owed to you because you're standing at the front 4. don't take it personally 5. focus on teaching the material instead of teaching some notion of right and wrong 6. be a good lecturer. 7. don't be a bad lecturer
at the college level, the best asian students often try to study in the united states. moreover, this stereotype ignored the huge portion of the asian populace that don't even get the equivalent of a high school education, never mind college. but it's a nice convenient stereotype when bemoaning the modern day american student
if large portions of your students are eating fries, zoning out, IMing their friends then chances are good you're a mediocre teacher teaching mediocre material. unlike high school, where attendance is required, people have to make some sort of voluntary effort to attend community college. it's not some sort of hostile, captive audience
EDIT - ugh. these threads always degenerate. i'll just stick with my advice back when i thought this thread actually was about constructive suggestions on how to handle lateness. 1. pop quizzes 2. written policy 3. lose any preconceived notions of respect being owed to you because you're standing at the front 4. don't take it personally 5. focus on teaching the material instead of teaching some notion of right and wrong 6. be a good lecturer. 7. don't be a bad lecturer
I agree with you. I have been a student in classes where the lecturer was engaging and the material was interesting (to me anyway) and there are always still some students who are just completely rude in this regard. However, they seem to be the minority when the lecturer is doing a good job of lecturing.
I had one class recently with about 20 students and I watched the progression from engaged to bored silly over the semester; midway through the semester, about 10 out of 20 students were texting, napping, or working on something from another class during class time. A good chunk didn't show up at all, and I admit I was one of those who skipped often.
The professor was a very very nice woman but had the most uninspiring, flat, rather monotone delivery style of any instructor I'd ever experienced. She spoke in a voice barely above a whisper, she had a very heavy accent that was incredibly difficult to decipher, and she basically read the assigned text back to us for the entire class period. I felt bad for her. She somehow managed to make a very interesting topic (the class was World Religions) a complete snoozefest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crzydmnd
I have the policy you're referring to, but it's actually NEVER happened that a student who would be affected by it didn't have a C or D or even worse based on grades anyway. In other words, students who exceed the absences don't tend to be A or B students in the first place.
If it did happen that I had a student who had an A or B going (and he or she seemed to be continuing on that trend), and he/she exceeded the absences, I'd likely do one of two things:
1) Bend on my policy (especially if he/she exceeds the absences only by one) and give the grade he or she earned based on written assignments (tests, essays). If I made this choice, it would very likely be because I assessed the student's overall attitude, respect level, and effort in class to be strong enough to deserve my bending.
or
2) Enforce my policy anyway, with the following rationale (that many of my colleagues have as well with regard to attendance, particularly in the face of the "If I can get an A or B on assignments and meet all the requirements, why do I HAVE to attend class?" argument):
The requirements for the class are not just the written assignments, the exams, the quizzes, or the final. Also included in what is required in order to earn credit for the course is quality and meaningful participation in class. This is a more "overall," abstract requirement, but it is no less significant.
That means that one (a student, that is) is dialoguing with other students, listening to lectures, offering his/her thoughts occasionally which may or may not help other students, participating in group work, helping peers during peer review, offering one's thoughts on readings, clarifying things for classmates who may have less understanding of a concept. (This doesn't, however, mean that shy students aren't also participating adequately in class as long as they listen and as long as they are willing to speak at least in small groups).
I see your point about participation and being a member of the class. In my experience, an instructor with that attitude has been a rarity. In a good 80 to 90 percent of the courses I have taken, the instructor lectures, you take notes, you may ask a question for clarification, you MAY see a bit of discussion start to take place before the instructor has to stop it because they need to cover x amount of material in x number of classes and there is not enough time to allow for a lot of class discussion to take place. Therefore, in my own experience in classes both at the community college and at the university, there is very little active participation going on. I am there to get good notes, and depending on the class and the lecturer, what's in those notes is usually found by reading the textbook thoroughly.
In fact, I used to dream about "college" and my ideas were based off of television and movies. I imagined impassioned, active discourse and intelligent debate and an environment where a student could express their opinions or theorize and have the benefit of the input of other students and the professor. You know, like on TV. I was sorely disappointed when I discovered that MOST classes were primarily an hour and a half of sitting and taking frantic notes.
I also soon realized that, at least with humanities type courses, I was absolutely fine reading the text and studying on my own. The classes I knew I HAD to attend were math classes and one Anatomy & Physiology course that moved quickly.
I don't mean to try and sound like I am "special" but I will say that out of all the classes I have taken, there were truly only a handful where I knew I could not miss class because it would hurt my progress and I would get behind. My grades, over the past four years, reflect that. I have several As in classes I barely attended, once it was clear that the instructor was okay with that, and I am in Texas, but no one seems to really enforce the attendance laws in my case.
I had a course last semester; the course was Evolutionary Psychology. Interesting topic. Aside from watching some video clips (which were also posted online), our Professor spent every class day going over study guide questions. We'd all been given study guides for each of the four exams. There were about 40 questions per study guide. He would sit at the front of class and read a question; someone would raise their hand and answer (verbatim from the textbook), the professor would type the answer in the Word doc that was up on the board. This was the class structure, every single day.
There was nothing going on in that class that I couldn't accomplish at home and home, for me, was over an hour away. Sitting in that classroom cost me an extra $4 in parking fees. It was the first class of the day for me. Skipping that class here and there gave me an extra hour of paid work time if I wanted it or an extra hour to prepare for the class that came after it that was kicking my butt in terms of challenge. Or, as a long distance commuter student with kids and a job, a much needed extra hour of sleep! That's the unattractive truth.
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Quote:
Which side of this debate one falls on has a lot to do with what his or her philosophy of education is in general. I don't view education as an automated process of performing on tests and essays. I view education as a more dialogical, interactive process. I actually see it as happening more so in between the tests and written assignments. So when one only does the tests and written assignments, I don't believe he or she has even gotten most of what is actually education part.
Which side of this debate one falls on has a lot to do with what his or her philosophy of education is in general. I don't view education as an automated process of performing on tests and essays. I view education as a more dialogical, interactive process. I actually see it as happening more so in between the tests and written assignments. So when one only does the tests and written assignments, I don't believe he or she has even gotten most of what is actually education part.
I think that this is a lovely philosophy (and I agree with it!) but I believe you are in the minority. Perhaps not in theory but definitely in practice. As I said, I wished for this sort of experience before I ever took a college class but soon realized it was not going to be the case. In my very first semester, way way way back in 1992, I passed my first required English composition class with an A after attending maybe 30% of the time. I discussed it with the instructor and he gave me a list of assignments and due dates and I simply followed the list and read the required readings. The focus is always on covering a large amount of material and not having enough time to do so adequately and therefore, the class must keep moving on at a quick pace. Discussion time is a luxury in most cases.
This has certainly NOT been the way I've approached every class, I am just saying that there have been enough classes where skipping here and there was workable and I have not had the majority of my courses be the kind where there was a high level of student to student interaction or student-instructor interaction that you are describing. Those have been the minority.
I don't believe myself to be a know-it-all who has nothing to learn but I also recognize my natural strengths (pretty much everything but math/science) vs the areas where I need to buckle down more (math/science). An example of this was when I took a philosophy course (ethics) and one of the first things the professor did on the first day of class was to issue a stern warning about how we were in a college course, how he expected college-level writing and would accept nothing less and how his standards were very very high. He let us know that the writing assignments we would be expected to complete in his course (and there were several) were NOT the kind of thing we could safely eke out the night before class and strongly urged us all to get started early on the papers that would be due throughout the semester.
Everyone looked terribly frightened and worried and hung on his every word. I fretted a great deal over the first paper, turned it in, got an A+ with "Excellent" written across the top. My schedule got chaotic and life happened and as it turns out, every other single paper I wrote for that class was done the night before and a few were done the morning before class. A couple were actually written on my laptop, sitting in my car on campus. I got an A on every single paper. My classmates complained constantly that he was a "harsh grader" and that the class was too difficult. I received an A in the course. Yes, I attended regularly but my point is, I have heard professors and instructors say these kinds of things and give these kinds of warnings and at this point I just assume they are addressing the lowest common denominator.
I have noticed much more of a focus on enforcing attendance since I transferred to a four year university and I believe it is because the student population there is primarily traditional students, 18 to 22, who are fresh from high school and perceived to be lacking self-discipline and yes, I guess I am annoyed and a bit resentful with some of these policies, considering.
Last edited by Sally_Sparrow; 06-13-2013 at 12:46 AM..
I would never teach a college class where the students got no benefit from attending. I rarely lecture but if I did it would be about things not in the text book and the student would be required to understand and remember what I said in class to pass the test.
These boring lecturers talking about things in the text book talking to a sea of students playing with their Smart Phone are a problem with Higher Education today. But that is not the situation in my class.
Most of the late arriving students come during class activities that we need their participation, so they are holding up the rest of the class by their lateness.
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