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I believe young people should always go to the best college they can afford. In addition to the perks mentioned here by some, a top University has something called alumni which in the case of the really top universities is the gift that keeps on giving throughout one's career and life.
I believe young people should always go to the best college they can afford. In addition to the perks mentioned here by some, a top University has something called alumni which in the case of the really top universities is the gift that keeps on giving throughout one's career and life.
Honestly, it never helped me. I moved away from the Pittsburgh area early on. Many people where I live now have barely heard of the University of Pittsburgh, yet it is a big college. The alumni association lost track of me for about 30 yrs. They never did find me, I found them. My daughter went to a small liberal arts college and they have a much more active alumni assn.
If you are trying to go to a Top 5 law school it might weigh in a little. Obviously the Admissions office at Harvard Law would probably give some preference to a graduate from Harvard or another Ivy League school. But keep in mind that the purpose of attending law school is to pass the state and national Bar. The thing you want to look at the most in a law school is not the name on the door but the rate of passage of the Bar. After all, it will do you NO good to spend 3 years there if you are unable to pass the Bar.
Passing the Bar exam is more about the individual than the school. I know two people who passed the July 07 CA Bar on the first try from two correspondence schools: Taft and Concord. Both are in their 50s. I used to work at Stanford, and know graduates who flunked the same bar. In fact, I know a couple Stanford students who are $150K+ in the red and still haven't passed the Cal Bar after taking it more than once. Go figure.
For the Ivy League, yes it does give you a leg up but remember that even idiots can get an Ivy League degree (look at our President!) if their daddies hand over a big enough check to buy them admission.
Even though I'm not a fan of George W, I will take exception to this. I hardly think he's an idiot, but not the brightest bulb, either. One of the things he's faulted for is his impromptu speaking. It's really hard to speak in perfect syntax all the time. (Think about how many times you've ended sentences with prepositions. LOL) Now, if he wrote like that, where he had the chance to proof it, it would be a problem.
I don't think people in Southern California know of Northwestern as much... I also went to CSUF for my Master's... I'm sure other people in other States haven't heard of it....
I know it's in Evanston (Chicago), but I'd be willing to best at least 50% of the Californians you poll might think it's near Seattle. LOL.
I took a summer course at CSUF. Neat little campus and a decent teacher. (I transferred it back to my small private college in CA).
* Where you live and where you plan to live. If you're in most parts of the Midwest or Sunbelt, it doesn't matter as much as it does if you live on the East Coast / New England where some job markets are flooded with ivy league grads. ( I do know of someone from U-Mass Dartmouth who was treated like royalty in LA because hiring managers in LA didn't know the difference between Dartmouth College and U-Mass Dartmouth; three cheers for cluelessnes!)
* Established Universities vs. "Office Park Universities": I think people who obtain degrees from places like University of Phoenix are truly screwing themselves when it comes to being taken seriously in the job market. "Office Park Universities" might be OK for working adults who plan to stay in their insurance co. jobs or RN's who need the BA to go into management... ...but they don't have the influential alumni connections or recognition that can take them places. I know hiring managers at large Cincinnati banks that literally toss resumes from Office Park Universities. They have the choice between Miami U (of Ohio), Ohio State, UC, and "Office Park University." Who would you toss into the trash?
* What you study. An RN is highly desirable everywhere. Ditto for accountants. Architects are a dime a dozen and those from top schools tend to fare better in the job market.
* Your plans for grad school. Students from highly selective undergraduate programs have a much easier time getting into better graduate programs.
There's a huge difference in starting pay for MBA's from Top 10 schools, Top 25 schools, and everyone else.
You make a LOT of very good points.
1. Geography - Agreed, if you are doing the run of the mill undergrad business degree and then plan to go to work, the geographic location of the school is highly important. I see that you might be in Boston (617), but one of the most cliquish job markets I've seen is Seattle. To anyone who wants to land there, I'd say you should strive for a Univ of Wash degree. An Ivy or Stanford would open doors, but it's a big UW town. I know that I got an "extra" grad degree in the evening for that very purpose. I also learned afterwards that I couldn't stand that area, so I'm a little bitter toward Seattle and the UW, but the knowledge, the degree, and the high GPA stay with me.
2. One friend calls those "industrial park degrees." I know two people who went to University of Phoenix for business degrees. They are absolutely no better for having gone and their current jobs are as banal as the jobs they had prior to the degree from Phoenix. An undergraduate business major at my baccalaureate school takes 3 semesters of accounting (that's 42 weeks). It's still no guarantee that they would have a clue. Phoenix slides you through with 5 weeks of accounting. Yes, for the RN, or insurance person, who wants a slight uptick in her/his job, it might be ok. So many cities offer legit public university UG bus/MBA programs at night that it is pointless to pursue the industrial park degree, IMO.
3. True and not true about what you want to study. For nursing or accounting, any decent university will do. For architecture, there is some truth to what you say. However, architecture has a huge attrition rate within 10 to 15 years of graduation, so licensed architects with 10 years of experience are in high demand in Las Vegas, Phoenix, Sacramento, etc. Also, architecture schools run the gamut from appropriately technical to downright flakey (IMO). I would almost say it's easier for an experienced architect to remain employed than a (non-CPA) accountant in private industry who runs into some downsizing and he/she is at an advanced age. In architecture, the never-ending learning curve combined with the attrition makes for a better situation, though the work is extremely demanding.
4. As for other fields, it is absolutely true that this matters for law. Some firms will not even talk to graduates of "lesser" schools. Sure, one can be a successful lawyer with an education from Oregon, UNLV, etc., but certain doors won't open unless you went to an Ivy/Cal/Michigan/Virginia. It's sad, but true. For the highest visibility jobs, the caliber of the law school is extremely important, not to mention the lifetime connections.
Medical school doesn't appear to be that way. The bottom quartile of the medical school class at UNR appears to have as much chance of access to good positions as does the upper quartile at Georgetown (correct me if I'm wrong). However, where you study before med school might matter. A high GPA from an "easy" school (Chico) will not count as much as a high GPA from a harder school (Notre Dame). I have a nephew going through this right now. He doesn't want the intense big schools like Berkeley. I think that a high GPA at a very respectable school like Santa Clara would also be fine for this process.
MBA...ah yes. Almost as snotty as the law school hiring game. Again, some companies will talk to Columbia/NYU/Virginia/Duke grads but draw the line above Emory or UT-Austin or UW. It becomes very arbitrary. Definitely not as hard to get into as med or law, but the school you select for the MBA itself does count for a lot. Heck, all you need is about a 3.4 or 3.5 in ANY UG major to get into Michigan or UVa. However, med schools and law schools tend to cut off at about 3.75. That, right there, is a different world. Also, to bash the MBA a little bit, so much of it is about "externalities." That is, while the GPA you amass is important, the shallowness surrounding "apperance" and the "right" extracurricular clubs is equally important. Thus, it's not a profession. It's a generalist degree. If you are looking for more "security" and the notion of a professional shingle, it isn't such a good path.
But I really enjoyed your post and agree with 90+% of the points you make.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot
Even though I'm not a fan of George W, I will take exception to this. I hardly think he's an idiot, but not the brightest bulb, either. One of the things he's faulted for is his impromptu speaking. It's really hard to speak in perfect syntax all the time. (Think about how many times you've ended sentences with prepositions. LOL) Now, if he wrote like that, where he had the chance to proof it, it would be a problem.
The man cannot even speak decent English. He talks like some back of the woods southern hick redneck like you see on Jerry Springer everyday. I doubt the man writes anything at all. He just signs stuff.
Honestly, it never helped me. I moved away from the Pittsburgh area early on. Many people where I live now have barely heard of the University of Pittsburgh, yet it is a big college. The alumni association lost track of me for about 30 yrs. They never did find me, I found them. My daughter went to a small liberal arts college and they have a much more active alumni assn.
True. My wife went to a very small, regionally well respected liberal arts school for UG. They have a directory available online of almost every alumni that ever graduated from that college. I would say 90%+ are included due to the tightness of their community. The directory has their phone number, UG degree and current job title. She used that directory to get her current job. She graduated in 98 with a physics degree. We wanted to relocate to a Huntsville, AL. She looked in the directory for physics majors in Huntsville. She called a man who graduated in the early 70s and was now a senior propulsion researcher at NASA Marshall. He didn't have any positions available but put her in contact with several people, all very high up at NASA, the local university or private companies. After getting to know her a little through phone conversations, he made calls on her behalf to give a "heads up" that she would be calling his contacts. She ended up getting a job through his recommendation. We met him and had lunch on our first visit to the city for an interview, he was so welcoming and encouraging to us. I was dumbfounded. I graduated from a 35,000+ university and the thought of cold calling an alumni member and actually getting help was so foreign to me.
College sort of glosses over the differences in cost of living, commute times, all kinds of factors in different cities. They sell you this idea that everything is "equal", when in fact things are very lopsided. The ultimate goal (I think) is net worth, owning a home, securing retirement. A law grad $50 or $80 k in debt living in San Francisco or NYC is going to have a much tougher time than someone less in debt living in the middle of the country thats already bought a home, saving for retirement, etc.
-The opportunity cost of your tuition
Again, something that is glossed over or ignored. But a $60 k education, invested at 7% for 40 years, thats almost a million dollars. That's $25 k a year vs a non degree. Would a french or journalism degree be worth an extra $25 k a year?
Certainly, if you're going to get into law, medicine, engineering, something like that, its a no brainer. But for other degrees, I don't know. Plus the opportunity cost of not working. Plus the opportunity cost of a graduate degree or phd.
-Online degree
If you're embarassed about where you went to school or your friends dont take it seriously, its probably not a good sign. But I dont know much about them. I agree, I think its pointless to go if a public univeristy, state school, real brick and mortar school offers the same thing in your city.
Put yourself in the shoes of your employer. If you had 200 resumes on your desk, 195 of them were from UCLA, NYU, state schools, and 5 were from online universities, who would you pick?
-In some fields, the velvet rope only opens to those with the right credentials.
Getting a non top 25 mba, or non top 25 or 50 law degree, has much less value.
I think for any college, you have to run down the costs, debt vs potential payoff. Don't just take the colleges word that "everything will be fine." I dont see how alot of people are going to come out ahead taking on $50 or $100 k in debt, starting in the mid figures, living in an expensive city. The math doesnt work.
I think it all depends on some of the following...
* Where you live and where you plan to live. If you're in most parts of the Midwest or Sunbelt, it doesn't matter as much as it does if you live on the East Coast / New England where some job markets are flooded with ivy league grads. ( I do know of someone from U-Mass Dartmouth who was treated like royalty in LA because hiring managers in LA didn't know the difference between Dartmouth College and U-Mass Dartmouth; three cheers for cluelessnes!)
* Established Universities vs. "Office Park Universities": I think people who obtain degrees from places like University of Phoenix are truly screwing themselves when it comes to being taken seriously in the job market. "Office Park Universities" might be OK for working adults who plan to stay in their insurance co. jobs or RN's who need the BA to go into management... ...but they don't have the influential alumni connections or recognition that can take them places. I know hiring managers at large Cincinnati banks that literally toss resumes from Office Park Universities. They have the choice between Miami U (of Ohio), Ohio State, UC, and "Office Park University." Who would you toss into the trash?
* What you study. An RN is highly desirable everywhere. Ditto for accountants. Architects are a dime a dozen and those from top schools tend to fare better in the job market.
* Your plans for grad school. Students from highly selective undergraduate programs have a much easier time getting into better graduate programs.
There's a huge difference in starting pay for MBA's from Top 10 schools, Top 25 schools, and everyone else.
That is the funniest thing that I have heard all day. Thank you for that. Did you know that University of Phoenix has one of the largest Alumni associations in the world? Did you know that the school has been checked out so much by nearly every kind of agency around and it turns out that most have decided that the quality of the education is on par and in some cases above many traditional universities? Bet you didn't know any of that. Also many employers that I know have no problem hiring someone with a degree from UOP. Funny how many people have this issue with the school. I bet that many of the people taking the traditional route to an education couldn't hang with those of us that went to UOP. Try working full time, raising a family and spending an additional 30 to 50 hours a week on school work.
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I know two people who went to University of Phoenix for business degrees. They are absolutely no better for having gone and their current jobs are as banal as the jobs they had prior to the degree from Phoenix. An undergraduate business major at my baccalaureate school takes 3 semesters of accounting (that's 42 weeks). It's still no guarantee that they would have a clue. Phoenix slides you through with 5 weeks of accounting. Yes, for the RN, or insurance person, who wants a slight uptick in her/his job, it might be ok. So many cities offer legit public university UG bus/MBA programs at night that it is pointless to pursue the industrial park degree, IMO.
