I don’t get why COS has such a bad rep (Denver: college, camp)

[Phil P]

Originally Posted by TCHP

IMO, I don't know that I'd call Pikes Peak and GotG world class either. Highly unique, certainly. However, as listed by Wittgenstein's Ghost, COS is not unique for any one thing. Everything we have here can be found somewhere else in the US and certainly the world. However, what we do have is a broad range of items found within an hour of Cos that is hard to duplicate for sheer variety of outdoor experiences that can only be found in a very few places.

You really think the city government isn't serious about expanding east? Since you've lived here previously, I'm shocked by this statement. The growth to the east is massive. Personally I'd rather see denser growth instead of the sprawl heading east.

Oh, BTW, the Ring the Peak trail system does have a group developing a more comprehensive plan around access as well as closing the gaps in the trail. Unfortunately, you are correct that the NIMBY and anti-tax crowd in Cos do tend to exert enough influence to avoid the socialized spending on creating this much infrastructure to make a lot of what we have amazing and instead we are content to live with meh. As demonstrated through-out its life, Cos always waits for sugar daddies to foot the bill for these types of things. Today's sugar daddies aren't in it for social altruism and if they can't get the public to pay for their ability to reap profits, it aint gonna happen.

100% agree with the first paragraph, compared to somewhere like Jade Dragon Snow Mountain in China, Pikes Peak isn't AAAAA rated, but it's the combo of options AND easy access that's unique.

Well, when the developed the prior ring east, Powers, they had a pretty good plan and a major artery. Banning Lewis has been on the books for a while, but Marksheffel sure as heck is not an artery, they just seem to be extending the edges of hwy 24 and woodmen. Hence my comment about planning hesitancy. They are either dragging their feet at developing the next ring or just superbly incompetent. My bet was the former. They are building fast, but the cities growing slower percentage wise than it has in prior decades and housing inventory is tighter than it has ever been. I think it's a smart move for the city to annex all of Banning Lewis, because that allows them to just sit on it and NOT develop it if they choose so rather than to have rouge separate unincorporated suburb entities start putting housing of their own out there haphazardly.

I agree though, some more density, dare I just call it Denverization, would do the city good, scooters and all.

I recently saw a masterplan for Captain Jacks trail expansion, the area around the infamous 666 trail , and it did look pretty cool! Though seeing as how both native outdoor usage and outdoor tourism has outgrown raw population increase, I hope they are able to move quickly to keep up so that trail miles and access increases in step with usage.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

COS has 2 world class tourist attractions -- Pikes Peak and Garden Of The Gods. Other things are not exceptional.

Funny, I don't recall using "world class" or "exceptional" in my post.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Phil P

Part of the deal the Springs is going through now that's unique to it's geography is it's basically built out as big as it should be, the city shouldn't and to a large extent can't expand its footprint. Outside of growing Woodland Park / Divide, basically any of the good spots to develop have been developed and the city is hemmed in on all sides. There's a little bit of room to dense up but it's still COS, it's not going to have public transportation and blocks of apartments like Denver built.

IMO, this is one of the main reasons the Springs is going to see substantial real estate appreciation over the coming years. Boulder has this same "problem." It is effectively limiting supply, but the demand will continue to grow.

Originally Posted by TCHP

IMO, I don't know that I'd call Pikes Peak and GotG world class either. Highly unique, certainly. However, as listed by Wittgenstein's Ghost, COS is not unique for any one thing. Everything we have here can be found somewhere else in the US and certainly the world. However, what we do have is a broad range of items found within an hour of Cos that is hard to duplicate for sheer variety of outdoor experiences that can only be found in a very few places.

Yes, exactly. I wasn't trying to say that the Springs has one thing that no other place does. But the totality of what it offers is very rare, and in most cases, only exists in cities that are much more expensive. My wife and I put every small- or mid-sized mountain-oriented city that was within two hours of a major airport on our list when we moved here five years ago. The list is shorter than you'd think, and it mostly consists of more expensive places (Flagstaff and Boulder, for example). It's tough to find what we have at any price, though.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Loyoung

I would say that its true they are not exceptional if you're just passing through or on vacation. Living with those as amenities on the other hand does make the area exceptional (if you're into the outdoors). Unless you're on the way eastern edge of town you're never more than 10-15 minutes away from a trailhead. That its not something you find in a city this size anywhere else.

First of all, I wasn't arguing that point.

I loved COS's open space parkland. But let me ask you -- what percent of the COS area population uses that open space to any significant extent. I was a little too old and bothered by the elevation to do any long-distance hiking while I lived there, but I would do short trails. I almost always alone out there.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

Funny, I don't recall using "world class" or "exceptional" in my post.

Funny, but I wasn't aware that in responding to a post, one was limited to the exact words of the poster.

I'm saying there are two "world class" and "exceptional" features in COS -- Pikes Peak and GOG. Maybe "world class" was a slight exaggeration, but when I let friends know I was moving to COS a decade ago, almost everyone of them mentioned those 2 particular sights.

And then there was some guy who said, "We have multiple 700+ acre open spaces that are some of the best in the country. Garden of the Gods is probably the coolest city park in America. North Cheyenne Canon, Palmer Park, Ute Valley, Red Rocks Canyon Open Space.....it is absolutely crazy how much stuff we have in town that is vacation-worthy for most of the US population. To top it off, our downtown is a manageable size but has some really neat stuff now (especially all of the new stuff on the south end of downtown), there are quite a few highly-ranked schools and the weather is great. Personally, I think the Springs is one of the most desirable places to live in the United States."

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

And then there was some guy who said, "We have multiple 700+ acre open spaces that are some of the best in the country. Garden of the Gods is probably the coolest city park in America. North Cheyenne Canon, Palmer Park, Ute Valley, Red Rocks Canyon Open Space.....it is absolutely crazy how much stuff we have in town that is vacation-worthy for most of the US population. To top it off, our downtown is a manageable size but has some really neat stuff now (especially all of the new stuff on the south end of downtown), there are quite a few highly-ranked schools and the weather is great. Personally, I think the Springs is one of the most desirable places to live in the United States."

Yes, I said all of that....

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

Yes, I said all of that....

And the threat of forest fires is great, too!

[Loyoung]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

First of all, I wasn't arguing that point.

I loved COS's open space parkland. But let me ask you -- what percent of the COS area population uses that open space to any significant extent. I was a little too old and bothered by the elevation to do any long-distance hiking while I lived there, but I would do short trails. I almost always alone out there.

No clue as to the numbers(not sure to stats exist) for number of park users. I will say they have expanded parking in several parks. I actually just got back from a ride in north cheyenne canyon, where the parking lot was full. Lower jacks lot had vehicles and the upper gold camp lot still had 20+ cars. The weekends are insane, and this was a pre-covid issue that was exacerbated by the pandemic.

[otowi]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

First of all, I wasn't arguing that point.

I loved COS's open space parkland. But let me ask you -- what percent of the COS area population uses that open space to any significant extent. I was a little too old and bothered by the elevation to do any long-distance hiking while I lived there, but I would do short trails. I almost always alone out there.

I would be interested in seeing that data. I think things have changed some since you left, perhaps - when did you go, I forget?

Anecdotally, I surveyed my students on parks usage for some other purpose than this question, but all of them could report going to at least a few of our parks/trails unless they had been here less than a year - and this includes students living in poverty. None of them had been to all the ones I asked about, but all of them who had been here more than a year had been to at least 1.

I'd say about half the people I know who live here (and I've lived here 46 years) regularly use the parks, and the other half rarely do.

Parks have gotten considerably more busy in the past 5 years as the city and tourism have both grown. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if they reported that average traffic had nearly doubled this summer at Garden of the Gods over 5 years ago.

[Wittgenstein's Ghost]

Originally Posted by otowi

I would be interested in seeing that data. I think things have changed some since you left, perhaps - when did you go, I forget?

Anecdotally, I surveyed my students on parks usage for some other purpose than this question, but all of them could report going to at least a few of our parks/trails unless they had been here less than a year - and this includes students living in poverty. None of them had been to all the ones I asked about, but all of them who had been here more than a year had been to at least 1.

I'd say about half the people I know who live here (and I've lived here 46 years) regularly use the parks, and the other half rarely do.

Parks have gotten considerably more busy in the past 5 years as the city and tourism have both grown. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if they reported that average traffic had nearly doubled this summer at Garden of the Gods over 5 years ago.

Very interesting information regarding the students' use of parks. That's great to hear.

Nearly 100% of the people we know use parks and open spaces regularly, but we probably run in a crowd that is a bit more outdoors-oriented than most. One of our favorite things about the Springs is how we tend to go on hikes or bike rides or climbs with friends instead of just going to bars or to coffee shops, which is what people in DFW (our previous city) tended to do.

As for the idea that no one is out on the trails.....I wish!