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But just to comment on what I know now; a person is waving a rifle around (carrying, whatever) and not complying with demands from the police, the police (nor anyone) do not need to wait for the person to fire off a round before they take action. With a rifle like that, a person can potentially get off a few rounds before they are stopped.
Given kids have proven they are capable killers and can commit mass murder, I do not think any leeway should be given due to this being a kid.
My only question is; where in the heck are the parents? Who would let their kid go wondering around with a realistic firearm?
The police said that the fake gun didn't have the orange tip so the cops had no way of knowing if the gun was real or not. If they told the kid to drop the gun several times and he didn't respond then I believe they were within their rights to use deadly force. No one can say that it is unreasonable for the officers to believe that a 13 year old child might be carrying a real gun. If the kid didn't speak English and didn't understand what the officers were yelling at him that is unfortunate but all the more reason for immigrants to assimilate to our country and learn the language.
Someone mentioned in this day and age... yep, in this day and age, the jumping in with very little details is the way to go. The media leads the way. What they report is so often not even close to what happened, but, they got it on the air FIRST! That's what's important... being first.
Can you provide the full and accurate information that the media did/could not in this case? Is "I am not a crook" usually a persuasive defense for you?
Police have become a hair-trigger occupying force in too many neighborhoods. Their over-the-top SWAT team training leads them to regard all citizens as insurgents and to be ready to shoot to kill at the slightest perception of a provocation.
Unless and even if you have personally asked them for assistance, police today are to be considered the enemy. That is the sad truth of the matter. Never talk to a police officer if you do not have to. Never volunteer information about anything. Despite their phony chummy talk, police are not there to be your friend. They are there to see if they can discover a reason to arrest and charge you with something.
At a traffic stop for instance, always be respectful, but never roll down your window more than the inch or two that is necessary to hear the officer and to pass your license and registration out to him. A window that is rolled all the way down is an open invitation for the officer to claim that it was, and that he was therefore able to smell alcohol or marijuana. If you are asked to step out of the car, ask why, and if you eventually do get out, be sure the windows are all rolled up and lock the car behind you. If a traffic stop lasts more than three or four minutes, ask the officer if you are being detained or if you are free to go. In fact, you ARE free to go at that point unless the officer has found a reason to detain you, but he doesn't want you to know that. The longer he can string you along, the greater the chance that he will be able to come up with some reason to bust you. Don't let that happen.
If the kid didn't speak English and didn't understand what the officers were yelling at him that is unfortunate but all the more reason for immigrants to assimilate to our country and learn the language.
What kind of morality is that? You don't kill either children or adults for not being able to speak English.
Can you provide the full and accurate information that the media did/could not in this case? Is "I am not a crook" usually a persuasive defense for you?
Police have become a hair-trigger occupying force in too many neighborhoods. Their over-the-top SWAT team training leads them to regard all citizens as insurgents and to be ready to shoot to kill at the slightest perception of a provocation.
Unless and even if you have personally asked them for assistance, police today are to be considered the enemy. That is the sad truth of the matter. Never talk to a police officer if you do not have to. Never volunteer information about anything. Despite their phony chummy talk, police are not there to be your friend. They are there to see if they can discover a reason to arrest and charge you with something.
At a traffic stop for instance, always be respectful, but never roll down your window more than the inch or two that is necessary to hear the officer and to pass your license and registration out to him. A window that is rolled all the way down is an open invitation for the officer to claim that it was, and that he was therefore able to smell alcohol or marijuana. If you are asked to step out of the car, ask why, and if you eventually do get out, be sure the windows are all rolled up and lock the car behind you. If a traffic stop lasts more than three or four minutes, ask the officer if you are being detained or if you are free to go. In fact, you ARE free to go at that point unless the officer has found a reason to detain you, but he doesn't want you to know that. The longer he can string you along, the greater the chance that he will be able to come up with some reason to bust you. Don't let that happen.
Pure rot, hyperbole, paranoia, bad advice and jail-house lawyering. I'd almost find it amusing if it wasn't so pitiful.
Are there bad cops? Yes! But there are also good ones. Are police today like the beat cops and neighborhood police of yesteryear? No. But the times aren't the same either. Is game-playing on an individual's part going to help them any if stopped or approached? No, quite the opposite. It can actually be seen as and indication of possible criminality or a potential threat. Common courtesy and reasonable cooperation stand you in much better stead. In fact, they might yield a mere warning even when a citation was possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlaker
What kind of morality is that? You don't kill either children or adults for not being able to speak English.
Nor did they. They shot because of the rifle. Do try hard to use some restraint and common sense here. Your bias is standing in the way of any hint of reasonableness and you have lost all credibility. A little critical thinking goes a long way.
Pure rot, hyperbole, paranoia, bad advice and jail-house lawyering. Why am I not surprised? I'd almost find it amusing if it wasn't so pitiful.
All fact. None of it disputed. You may not be detained without a reason. If you are not being detained, you are in fact free to go. An officer does not have all day or all night to think up some reason to detain you. He has the time it would reasonably take to review your paperwork, run a license plate check, and if he intends to, issue you a citation or warning. That's it. Any questions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostly1
Are there bad cops? Yes! But there are also good ones. Are police today like the beat cops and neighborhood police of yesteryear? No. But the times aren't the same either. Is game-playing on an individual's part going to help them any if stopped? No, quite the opposite. It can actually be seen as a potential threat. Common courtesy and reasonable cooperation stand you in much better stead.
As I indicated earlier, always be respectful. Always know your rights as well. This is not a situation of good cops or bad cops. It is all cops. Minimizing contact and conversation with them is the only rational course to take.
If I was driving down the road and saw a kid walking around with that I'd be calling the cops too. Most toy guns look cartoon-ish this one looks pretty convincing to me.
From the article you posted the link to, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell whether or not the cops were justified; however, your tone suggests that the cops were in the wrong. Maybe you should wait for more details before "jumping in".
My tone suggests? Isn't that jumping in?
Details are now out. The individual turned around and started to raise the weapon and according to the police, in their direction. The individual was shot twice and fell to the ground, where according to witnesses (what we have so far) they shot him many more times.
Reports from the police are that they ordered the individual to move away from the weapon as he had fallen on top of it. Now just think about all this for a minute and ask yourself how anyone could move away from anything after being shot that many times. Here, I broke your arm now please pass the gravy. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
Perhaps the police were justified but like such things, after the suspect is down, shooting numerous more times?
"Ethan Oliver, who lives across the street from where the shooting occurred, said he heard two gunshots, and while Lopez was on the ground the deputies "went at it again and unloaded like six to seven shots," KTVU.com reported."
Perhaps there weren't six or 7 more shots, but for sure that information is easily verified as the police officer's firearms had to be taken into evidence immediately after the shooting.
In any case, it is a sign of the times and like I said previously, the tide starts to change, even among those ardent supporters of the police and attitudes change.
I was always one to see the police perspective for a variety of reasons but I too am seeing a different approach by the police toward even minor incidents. I'm lucky, my last encounter and many years ago only was a ticket for no seat belt as I was putting it on as I left a parking lot. No big deal. What I see now though are plenty of examples of highly questionable circumstances where lives are lost. That is a big deal and getting bigger.
Not questioning means information rarely gets out.
Okay, I get it, if someone with a replica firearm threatens the police they have no good choices and they need to and should defend themselves and the public, including shooting that person.
HOWEVER; so far as we know, the individual simply failed to respond. Failing to respond is not the same as threatening. The police ordered the individual to put down the gun (a replica but that doesn't matter, the police obviously did not know) and after a time, because the individual failed to respond, they shot him.
So far, there is no mention of the individual raising the firearm to threaten anyone and since the police where already there with weapons drawn (prudent and in line with protocol) the chances the individual could have pointed the firearm at them or someone else without being shot first is slim to none.
As it turns out it was a kid holding a replica gun. That means little since the police have no way of knowing if a gun is real or not, especially from any distance. Hopefully, the police will clarify and we'll find that the individual pointed the gun in their direction or in the direction of others. Otherwise; this will be yet another example of shoot first and ask questions later.
For the nuts: at least read the entire post before jumping in with both feet about how the police were justified by shooting first and asking questions later, you'll be made to look foolish.
Oh yes it is always EVERYONE ELSE, not the PARENTS or juvenile who think it's perfectly logical to walk around the streets with that.
And if these cops in NY DIDN'T take action, they'd be dead. From a 14 year old already charged with attempted murder in an unrelated incident.
Can't blame the cops for being nervous when someone of ANY AGE is holding what looks to be a real gun.
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