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Can you provide the full and accurate information that the media did/could not in this case? Is "I am not a crook" usually a persuasive defense for you?
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Nothing in my post indicates that I know anything other than what has been posted. What's the matter with you? What possible meaning do you think "I am not a crook" would be any sort of persuasive defense for me?
I would not be a cop for all the money in the world. They are asked to go out and deal with a segment of society most of us would not want to meet, and they do it on a daily basis. We want them to protect us against these people, and we are the first to call 911 when we need help, but then when a cop is put in a situation where they have to protect themselves we get upset that someone got hurt.
Most cops are just like you and me, they simply want to provide for their families and go home alive at night. But unlike us, they do not sell cars, flip burgers, work in nice offices, etc. They are putting their lives on the line every day and are put in situations where they have to make snap judgements. Many of the people they are encountering do not think like normal people and will kill someone for little or no reason whatsoever.
If someone has a gun, toy or not, they have given the cop a reason to believe he could be killed, and that IMO justifies him using whatever means is needed to not be killed. If you think they have such a cushy job, become a cop and let's see how you feel a year from now.
For me, I would rather have two well trained cops on the street than a juvenile with a gun, toy or not. Citizens have nothing to fear if they mind their own business and do as instructed. How big a leap is it from "toy" guns to real ones that kill grade school children?
I would not be a cop for all the money in the world. They are asked to go out and deal with a segment of society most of us would not want to meet, and they do it on a daily basis. We want them to protect us against these people, and we are the first to call 911 when we need help, but then when a cop is put in a situation where they have to protect themselves we get upset that someone got hurt.
Most cops are just like you and me, they simply want to provide for their families and go home alive at night. But unlike us, they do not sell cars, flip burgers, work in nice offices, etc. They are putting their lives on the line every day and are put in situations where they have to make snap judgements. Many of the people they are encountering do not think like normal people and will kill someone for little or no reason whatsoever.
If someone has a gun, toy or not, they have given the cop a reason to believe he could be killed, and that IMO justifies him using whatever means is needed to not be killed. If you think they have such a cushy job, become a cop and let's see how you feel a year from now.
Don
Well, been there and done that. Just because someone has a gun does not justify open season, it never has. This has nothing to do with a cushy job perception, becoming a police officer is a choice and with that choice comes a higher standard. Your comments apply the standards of those who haven't had the training, the experience, information and knowledge of a police officer so it really isn't valid.
That individual was shot 6-7 times. After he was shot those 6-7 times, according to the police, the officer(s) ordered him to move away from the rifle he had fallen on top of. Now you think about that. The individual fell after being shot twice. Now you figure out when those other 5 rounds were fired.
Everyone knows that a police officer must at times make split second decisions. That is what they are extensively trained to do. Again, applying the standards of the lay person to that of a trained police officer doesn't make any sense.
I didn't see anyone in this thread saying being a police officer was a cushy job, yet you apply that to others in your comment. Is that how it works?
The job of a police officer is harsh, demanding and often taken for granted. That has nothing to do with anything, you accept that from the very beginning or don't volunteer for the job. You do not become a police officer because it is easy, gets you a lot of money and recognition, you do so because you answer a higher calling than working in some other job.
There is a dangerous attitude change on the part of the American people. On the one side it is do whatever it takes to uphold security, deal with criminals and so on. On the other side is an increasing distrust of those we put our faith in to uphold security, maintain the safety of the public and enforce the laws. What is happening is that those two sides are getting farther and farther apart. The middle ground is evaporating.
To give anyone, including a police officer and especially a police officer, carte blanche to take a life because someone has a gun is foolish and goes down the road of a police state.
Lest you forget, the police are part of the community, not apart and above it. Yet, more and more you see a marked difference in the way we apply the ethics and morals of society to the police and other entities associated with law enforcement or national security.
This isn't about resources either, we have poured billions into law enforcement and yes, vast sums do come down the local PDs from federal monies. The police have equipment that would amaze you, all that costs a lot of money. Equipment that for the most part sits in the trunk of cruisers or locked away in armories. Instead of hiring more police and training them to be more effective, we heap gadgets on them, most of which are ill suited to do what they are supposed to do, as members of the community be there to provide law enforcement and help insure the safety and security of the public.
Back to this incident though, when an individual is shot perhaps 7 times, there is no ordering them to move away from anything. Yet that is what happened, according to a police spokesperson. If you've shot them twice and they have fallen, you stop shooting! You shoot when there is a imminent threat to yourself or others. Imminent means right dog gone now, not if he gets up after being shot, not because he is laying on a rifle and not because you can't see his hands.
I know for a fact that police officer is devastated because taking a life regardless of the reason changes you as a person and you live with that for the rest of your life. Nothing here takes away from that.
The question now and at the start of the thread, was: was it necessary? That does not imply blame or anything else, especially on an individual. This is about a direction we see so often these days where it matters less and less what someone was doing and more and more about do whatever the police thinks is right to do. It is training that help teach the police how to react to situations, they should not be trained or given the perception that it doesn't matter and anything goes.
The thread was to engage others about what is going on systemically, not to bring fault onto one or two police officers. Through all this, hopefully the department involved will review their training and culture to determine if that had anything to do with what happened. To do less is a disservice to those who patrol the street and in the end, bear the responsibility and are held accountable for sometimes life and death situations.
For me, I would rather have two well trained cops on the street than a juvenile with a gun, toy or not. Citizens have nothing to fear if they mind their own business and do as instructed. How big a leap is it from "toy" guns to real ones that kill grade school children?
"Citizens have nothing to fear if they mind their own business and do as instructed."
That is contrary to the Constitution, the laws and ethics and morals of this country. That comment though, fits well with the philosophies of totalitarianism, communism and fascism.
The leap from toy guns to real ones is large. Considering how many children play with toy guns, the number of those who then kill other people with reals guns is such a small percentage you'd have a hard time calculating it.
The logic of your comment can be applied to almost anything to justify anything. There is something called due process and what you said contradicts that. Do you know what due process means? Do you know why it is so important?
Can you provide the full and accurate information that the media did/could not in this case? Is "I am not a crook" usually a persuasive defense for you?
Police have become a hair-trigger occupying force in too many neighborhoods. Their over-the-top SWAT team training leads them to regard all citizens as insurgents and to be ready to shoot to kill at the slightest perception of a provocation.
Unless and even if you have personally asked them for assistance, police today are to be considered the enemy. That is the sad truth of the matter. Never talk to a police officer if you do not have to. Never volunteer information about anything. Despite their phony chummy talk, police are not there to be your friend. They are there to see if they can discover a reason to arrest and charge you with something.
At a traffic stop for instance, always be respectful, but never roll down your window more than the inch or two that is necessary to hear the officer and to pass your license and registration out to him. A window that is rolled all the way down is an open invitation for the officer to claim that it was, and that he was therefore able to smell alcohol or marijuana. If you are asked to step out of the car, ask why, and if you eventually do get out, be sure the windows are all rolled up and lock the car behind you. If a traffic stop lasts more than three or four minutes, ask the officer if you are being detained or if you are free to go. In fact, you ARE free to go at that point unless the officer has found a reason to detain you, but he doesn't want you to know that. The longer he can string you along, the greater the chance that he will be able to come up with some reason to bust you. Don't let that happen.
I agree with you....though the kid that died shoulda been told by SOMEONE, his parents maybe?..a school?..someone.. that if you walk around with a gun that looks real be prepared to be shot. Sure it's not right, but that's how it is. Some people do it on purpose...suicide by cop.
After seeing this toy compared alongside an actual AK, my opinion is tbat it's resemblance is not even funny. Way to real looking. It would have spooked me to. That said, such a thing being in the hands of a child would have given me serious pause before opening fire. Somehow, yhe option of taking cover, and actually hearing live rounds go off .Something about a child with an AK would seem ...wrong. ding ding! Yea, all that heat of the moment, the adrenaline charge of combat, the perception of life threatening danger etc etc. (Sigh) Is this a "good shoot"? I suppose it will be deemed as such. Mainly based on tbe realism of the toy rifle.
The rounds fired after the kid was down raise my eyebrows. Need to take a closer gander at this. Based on what I know at this moment, the shooting can be justified. Necessary? Not so much. It was a perceived and not confirmed threat. It can be loomed at from a lot of angles. Bottom line...dead kid. Didn't need to happen. That's my. 02.
He was shot from the front and the back. Something isn't matching up.
"A total of eight rounds were fired, according to a statement put out Thursday by Santa Rosa Police Lt. Paul Henry, whose department is investigating the death. Seven hit the boy, and two were deemed fatal: One to the chest and the second to the hip. Other bullet wounds were found on his right wrist, left bicep, right forearm, right buttocks and hip."
The shots were fired over a period of 26 seconds. WTF? Ok, give the doubt to the police but 26 seconds is a long time and I find it difficult to believe that the individual shood there for the 26 seconds getting hit 7 times before dropping dead.
Witnesses said the individual dropped after being hit with the first shot. Shot 6 times afterward? That would account for the hit to his backside.
Start counting 1...........26. That is a very long time. You have to wonder, did he flinch when getting hit so just keep shooting even after going down?
Something is very wrong or the information is very bad. That info came from the coroner's office btw.
Sorry but you have cover, the suspect is down, keep firing?
The police will live with that for a long time. It looks like fear and adrenaline took over common sense and training.
And a kid just one year older killed his teacher with a box cutter. News flash, it's common practice for criminals to get the most realistic toy gun they can find, pull off the Orange tip, and use it in armed robberies. He also had a realistic toy pistol with the Orange tip removed.
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